Artificial Diet for Monarchs

[Mona Miller]

Can't wait until they market this diet. Many of us that run out of milkweed will now have a solution to our problem.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Taylor" <chip@ku.edu>
> Jim: Yes, send pictures. The stallion (Jim's white monarch) is now on
> a shelf next to my desk. (I'll get to it, really I will). Now that we
> have the artificial diet in place, we should be able to maintain
> mutants like this in the future if we can get them to mate or can
> hand pair them.
>
> There will be more on the diet soon. We are now in a position to
> produce monarch pupae continuously and on demand - with three weeks
> notice - I just weighed a pupa that formed on the diet today - a
> giant at 1.67 grams (most large monarchs weigh 1.3 grams as pupae and
> we are getting mean weights for groups of 15 pupae ranging from 1.2 -
> 1.45 grams).
>
> Watch for an update tomorrow - a thanks to all for the fundraising
> and a great birthday party.

[JFS61]

I wish I could my hands on some of that right now as well, as my milkweed is almost gone.

Has anybody tried this artificial diet?:

http://texagenls.com/monarchdiets.htm

I know its only for hatchlings, but at this point, anything that cuts back on the amount of milkweed I need would be a great help.

[Mona Miller]

I've not tried this. Did you see the post and pictures (website) that Jim posted. It shows the Monarchs using artificial diet and they are using 3-5 ounce plastic containers that once helt baby food.

[Mona Miller]

I've not tried this one either, but they look like the same product:
http://educationalscience.com/merchant. ... tus=passed

[maryeleek]

Educational Science website says the hatchlings must begin using the diet as 1st or 2nd instars but goes on to say that cats that eat milkweed can't use the diet. If you found a 2nd instar cat, it would have had to have been eating milkweed already so this seems a contradiction.

There are more eggs being laid on the bit of remaining milkweed I have growing and if I don't find some wild tomorrow, my plants will be gone shortly. I wonder if I could use the diet to rear any future hatchlings this fall as I'm surely not going to have milkweed to feed the new ones from the eggs. sigh, I can't believe there is no wild milkweed growing around here! No wonder mama Monarchs keep coming to my dwindling patch of milkweed.

Has anyone else ordered and tried the artifical diet?

Mary

[Wyvern]

Educational Science website says the hatchlings must begin using the diet as 1st or 2nd instars but goes on to say that cats that eat milkweed can't use the diet. If you found a 2nd instar cat, it would have had to have been eating milkweed already so this seems a contradiction.

I don't think it really is a contradiction. I think it's more of a matter of whether or not the cat has fully imprinted on a preferred diet. The younger/smaller instars would have an easier time to imprint on or switch to the artificial diet compared to an older cat that is already firmly on a natural diet source.

It's like eastern hognose snakes. Their natural instinct is to be predisposed to feeding almost exclusively on toads. However, many (not all) baby hognoses in captivity can often be imprinted to take small mice and rats instead. The older the snake is the harder it is to convert them. A wild caught adult would be nearly (not completely) impossible to switch over. I actually cared for an adult eastern hognose many many years ago that surprisingly would eat toads during the summer/fall months and then switch to boiled chicken pieces in the winter/spring when there were no toads to be found....but he was a bit of a weird snake anyway LOL.

[maryeleek]

Thank you for this explanation.

I've thought of another question. In the photo of the little cat eating the diet in the plastic container, it appears the diet is a bit mushy and is just resting in the cup. How does one cleanse the container of frass if the food is on the inside surface of the container?

[Mona Miller]

If you look on that topic of baby food containers that Jim posted, Monarch Watch is placing the containers on their sides. If you access the pictures, click on the item, on the educational science website, they have put in some plastic lattice and the cats are eating at the top and the frass would fall to the bottom. If the bottom was the lid, then you could just take off the lid and clean that out.

http://monarchwatch.org/blog/2009/09/wa ... ontainers/
Scroll down a bit on this website and look at the pictures of what Monarch Watch is using.

http://educationalscience.com/merchant. ... tus=passed
Click on the images.

[Paul Cherubini]

The PETA group may say: Artificial Diet + Indoor Captive Rearing = Factory Farmed Monarchs.

The NABA group may say: http://www.naba.org/weddings.html

"Because the Monarchs were raised inside under unnatural conditions, it is possible that their delicate migratory physiology may not have been turned on."

"it is really a particularly long-lasting form of environmental pollution."

"Butterflies raised by unregulated commercial interests may spread diseases and parasites to wild populations, with devastating results"

"Often, butterflies are released great distances from their points of origin, resulting in inappropriate genetic mixing of different populations when the same species is locally present."

'The intentional release of native birds was outlawed in 1947. The time has come to do the same with butterflies.'

[Wyvern]

PETA is not really worth listening to. They don't want anyone keeping any kind of animal no matter how big or small, as a pet or for other purposes.

I can see the point of not releasing for weddings, since it has been known that unscrupulous folks will raid the winter sites for adults and then sell the butterflies they collected to others for these types of functions... and of course because the releases tend to be done out of the proper season, the butterflies end up dead not long after their release. At the very least they should limit butterfly releases to cabbage whites. I see them suckers year round even when there is some snow on the ground.

I can see commercial and non-commercial interests inadvertently causing the spread of diseases and such. It's already been shown with OE.

As for saying that captive rearing will screw up their migratory senses, I say no way. I had 4 monarchs last year make it to Mexico. They were raised from eggs, in an indoor work office setting with 70-75 F temps and standard office fluorescent lighting --- no special grow lights or anything.

And as for genetics mixing... that happens naturally in the wild.... from the butterflies flying across great distances to reach winter grounds. Butterflies don't read human maps or listen to what humans say they must do. There is nothing to stop a butterfly that "should" head to Mexico from heading to California or somewhere else instead... and vice versa.

[Monarch MaMa]

I respectfully disagree with Wyvern. Cabbage whites don't need to be raised & overpopulate the fields like those lousy blackbirds or sparrows. I have to cover my broccoli, kale, cauliflower & cabbage with netting to keep them from laying eggs on my veges! Raise all the painted ladies you like, or black swallowtails, etc... but no more cabbage whites!

[summerluver]

Thanks Mona - I hadn't checked out this forum yet - thought I'd looked over all of them. I agree on the cabbage whites. I don't even try and raise broccoli anymore. Hate finding all those little green worms floating in a pot with the broccoli after I'd thought I'd washed it all! Wyvern - hognose snakes? That's quite a different form scales. I'll stick to my butterflies and leave the snakes to you.

[Mona Miller]

I'm a bit confused, which forums are you talking about.

Try using row cover over your cabbages, they will keep the butterflies off. Also, radishes and nasturtiums are a catch crop for cabbage whites.

http://www.harrisseeds.com/Storefront/s ... overs.aspx
Row covers let light and water thru, they also protect plants from early or late frosts.

[summerluver]

The forums you've seen my name all over this past month - they're all so interesting. I used floating row covers years ago, purchased from mail order "Garden's Alive". Kept out our infestations of Mexican Bean Beetles so we could actually enjoy the green beans I planted. Now, I'm too busy with my Monarchs to spend as much time with the veggies as I used to. Gave over the back garden to the milkweed, and made raised gardens for the veggies. They're not very big though, so I can't plant all the species I used to.

[Mona Miller]

The radishes planted in with the green beans also keep the bean beetles off. Companion planting is amazing. Also, plant nasturtiums to deter aphids on milkweeds.

[Paul Cherubini]

The insect repellent chemicals found in companion plants might also be unhealthy for humans. But since those natural chemicals are not required to be tested for cancer causing potential, organic gardeners will never know if they might be exposing themselves to unidentified carcinogens, teratogens, mutagens, etc.

Commercial pesticides, by contrast, are tested extensively for cancer causing potential and other adverse health effects. Chemical companies spend alot of time screening thousands of insecticides until they find ones that not only control insect pests but also have low cancer causing potential.

[Mona Miller]

Key word, chemical companies. Chemical companies care about people as much as cigarette companies do. Also, note chemical companies do the testing. Not the government, not independent companies.

[Wyvern]

what's wrong with planting companion plants around edible plants to help deter bugs especially when the companion plants themselves are edible? naturtiums are edible as are radishes.. how can they be dangerous to humans when planted next to other edible plants in a veggie garden?

[texas butterfly]

I agree on the companion plantings. Nature's way of helping itself.

Also, plant additional of desired plants and then you have a little that can go to the bugs and other cats.

I've heard some people plant extra tomatoes for example, and then remove cats from their crops to these sacrifice tomato plants.

The artificial diet would be good in an emergency. No other choice.

And then for the handicapped that might not be able to enjoy this hobby any other way.

I'd rather see a little bit of this raising method versus the beautiful milkweed plant my neighbor has that she probably sprays every week so the bugs don't eat it.

[Paul Cherubini]

what's wrong with planting companion plants around edible plants to help deter bugs especially when the companion plants themselves are edible? naturtiums are edible as are radishes.. how can they be dangerous to humans when planted next to other edible plants in a veggie garden?

Just because a plant has been designated "edible" doesn't mean it doesn't contain natural pesticides. If some companion plants give off gases that repel insects then those gases are likely pesticide like chemicals and chemicals which might be unheathy for humans, but we don't know for sure because they havn't been tested. Example: We don't know what would happen to a baby raised inside a greenhouse that was full naturtiums or geraniums. Would the baby/child be able to breathe the gaseous insect repellent chemicals that are given off by those plants for years without adverse health effects?

http://www.arkansaspest.org/newsdetails.cfm?ID=30
On average, Americans ingest 5,000 to 10,000 different natural pesticides (those pesticides innately produced by plants, fruits and vegetables themselves to protect against insects) and their breakdown products.

Americans eat about 1,500 mg of natural pesticides per person, per day, which is about 10,000 times more than they consume of synthetic pesticide residues. " The possible cancer hazards of traces of synthetic chemicals such as pesticides are tiny compared with natural chemicals in diet.

Dr. Bruce Ames, leading cancer researcher and winner of President Bill Clinton s Medal of Science in 1999 " On a weight for weight basis, caffeine is between 25 and 50 times more toxic than some of the most commonly used herbicides

[summerluver]

I don't think those nasty nasturtians will be causing cancer any time soon, unlike the carcinogous substances documented in pesticides. (Putting a baby in a greenhouse?....really?) Years ago the pesticide pyrethrin was being sold as an organic and safe alternative to insect control. (I had a feeling there was something wrong because every time I was near it I got a nauseous headache.) It was made out of chrysanthemun leaves which seemed pretty harmless. Studies by the chemical companies touted it as completely safe, -- although the label said it should not be sprayed near water, and MAY harm some beneficial insects. Years later, other studies were done by organizations such as the National Pesticide Telecommunications Network and PANNA, (Pesticide Action Network of North America), that are not funded by chemical companies and have nothing to profit off of a marketed product. They found that it is a neurotoxin that affects water organisms and some beneficial insects. It affects their nervous systems, basically paralyzing them. An example of the dangers of this would be if it is broadly sprayed near a body of water, or the wind happens to blow it there, it affects all water life. All of the organisms, from the larvae of dragonflies and damselflies, crayfish, crabs, frogs, and the larger life forms that eat them. These would be anything from fish, otters, and the beautiful Great Blue Herons that are next on the food chain. I believe we'd be up there on the next rung, eating the fish, shellfish, waterfowl,etc. Other species such as birds, bats, etc. eat the insects that spend their larval form in the water when they emerge in adult form, so they're affected. Etc., Etc., Etc. (Did you know that general bird populations have dropped severely over the past 40 years, according to the bird count done annually during the migration through New York City? ...hmmm...could be a connection here.) The affects of poisons in our environment is taught to kids in elementary school, and helps them to understand how it hurts all of us. I don't think that they'll believe either that they're eating a lot of natural toxins over their lifetime from their salad bowls.

The Native Americans used companion plantings, and were famous for the Three Sisters: corn, pole beans, and squash. The crops were planted with a triangle of corn, pole beans planted next to the corn, and squash in the middle. The pole beans fixed nitrogen in the soil for the corn that's a heavy nitrogen feeder, and the corn provided a stalk for the pole beans. The squash provided ground cover for everyone and attracted pollinators. It worked out very well for all veggies involved, as well as for the Native Americans with high yields. I wonder if the chemical companies have a counter study to try and disprove this too? Probably...Paul, can you find one on that?

[texas butterfly]

Sorry but I have to chime in here.

Just found out two friends have been diagnosed with untreatable cancer.

One is under 50 and he is terminal. Chemical engineer

Other is 60 something and he worked at chemical plant.

I can not believe that their professions and job environments didn't contribute to their health issues.

I don't think any chemicals made by man are natural. They are modified and concentrated.

If this happening to humans, what is it doing to the wildlife.

But, then again, should this site be used too much to debate pesticide/chemical usage.

[summerluver]

I agree. This should actually be listed as a new forum with this much discusion. It went off track after Mona suggested I use some cover crops.

[Mona Miller]

I thought I mentioned that nasturtims attract aphids (catch crop), which are a major problem with milkweeds. Monarchs eat milkweed.

[texas butterfly]

Easy to get off topic.
In another unrelated forum getting off topic is called session hi-jacking. Or topic hi-jacking.

[Mona Miller]

There is a section on this form called "Off Topic".

[summerluver]

"Session Hi-Jacking"...I like that. It seems to fit. There are so many components to some of these discussions, that it's natural for them to take a turn at times. Upon looking over the discussions I've been involved in, this hijacking seems to occur when it's sidetracked with a study and comment to refute advice given by Mona. Paul, I don't know if you're aware of this, but it seems to be happening most often with you, which disrupts the flow of the conversation, and turns it towards debate of an organic vs chemical isssue. I don't think this is the place to have such a debate. We're all just trying to do our best and raise our beautiful, healthy butterflies. We have four days of beautiful, sunny weather forecast here in NJ. I'm keeping my eyes open for the migration to pass through, and will leytyou all know when they start. Have 2 to tag and release today, and a few more maturing. It's 56 out there right now though at 10:00am....chilly little butterflies.

[jillians]

I'm more familiar with the term "thread jacking". Back to the artificial diet question... I wonder if it affects the adult butterfly's ability/instinct to seek out milkweed to lay eggs on. If it isn't imprinted on that diet, would it know or would it try to find the artificial diet material for egg laying?

Here's another off-topic: would aphids on milkweed somehow destroy butterfly eggs? Just wondering why I had a lot of cats and a neighbor half a block away (with large Butterfly Weeds, easily 10x what I had) had none. What she does have is a ton of aphids...

[Mona Miller]

Aphids can transmit disease to milkweeds. Aphids also draw in other predators, which would consume eggs and caterpillars; for example, ants, lacewings.

The question whether the diet would cause them to not be able to function in the wild is interesting. I had to think on that a bit and remembered that some Painted Ladies that my son's class raised were able to mate and lay eggs on real plants. I've also had Painted Ladies from a kit and gotten the adults to lay.

When Monarch Watch sends out their kits, they send the caterpillars on artificial diet. People receiving those kits are told that they have to have live plants to transfer them to finish the cycle. That means that a short time on diet did not cause the caterpillars to refuse to eat live plants.

[Wyvern]

The only thing I would wonder about is if a monarch was raised start to finish on just the artificial diet - would it be "protected" from potential predators when set free. Milkweed has toxins that are passed to the caterpillars/adults. But that doesn't mean the artificial diet has those necessary toxic components. I know that hornworms raised on artificial diets don't have the toxicity that their wild / naturally raised counterparts do... the artificial diets just do not have the toxic components in them that would make the hornworms dangerous to feed to other animals.

[Mona Miller]

I know the painted lady diet has ground up host plant. I thought the monarch diet had that, too.

[jillians]

There may be some milkweed component in the artificial diet.. I'm sure they've done enough research & tracking to know it's producing competent adult butterflies. Considering they know their migration route without prior experience, I guess it's not a reach for them to know their host plant.

I read somewhere that not all milkweeds produce the toxic compounds so not all Monarchs are toxic. Predators should avoid them based on their coloration regardless of toxicity.

[sbannister]

The PETA group may say: Artificial Diet + Indoor Captive Rearing = Factory Farmed Monarchs.

I have to disagree as a PETA member. The difference is that in factory farming, the animals are raised in unatural, filthy, very confined quarters on artificial diets and THEN CRUELY PAINFULLY SLAUGHTERED, not SET FREE!

Also, PETA is not against keeping dogs and cats as pets, they go around giving dog houses to poor dog owners in winter and encourage adoptions, spaying and neutering. They are against keeping WILD animals like lions and tigers as pets because that is so unnatural for the animals and dangerous for humans.

OK - I'm way off topic, but had to chirp in.

[parksnaturalist]

Hello Monarch Friends. Greetings from Canada.
I am brand new to this board and to butterflies actually.
I have gone back in the posts as far as my hectic schedule will allow looking for more information about what is contained in the artificial diet.
I am sensing that there may be some proprietary issues but if I am mistaken and a recipe has been posted previously, I would appreciate it if you could repost it for us newbies!
Thanks!

[Mona Miller]

This is the only online butterfly artificial diet recipe that I know of:

http://dragonflypower.com/cellsalts.htm
Synthetic Hostplant Recipe

http://dragonflypower.com/MSReference.htm
Raising Butterflies

This is not the one that Monarch Watch is using.