HELP i wash my milkweeds with spinosad (conserve)

[Joylin]

HELP I washed my milkweeds with spinosad, conserve, I thought at the beginning that will help with my spider mites to kill them as the milkweeds where full of it, but when I found out these liquid will kill my catterpillars, I do not know if it can harm my butterfly. I just released 15 today and has over 70 in crisalids, I washed them these morning with water, I will wash them again this afternoon but i am concern, does anyone knows how long will the conserve be at the plants? will wash it will not kill my cats or the eggs and the butterfly. Please let me know, any ideas HELP ME PLEASEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mona Miller]

http://www.livingwithbugs.com/spinosad.html
Only problem if you need to feed them the plants. Sunlight helps to break it down, not water. up to 16 days, but it can last longer because some of it goes into the plant.

http://www.livingwithbugs.com/PDFiles/mfs13.pdf
EFFECTS ON THE ENVIRONMENT
Leaf persistence: Spinosad is partly taken up by leaf tissue and this
enhances its effectiveness over time. Dry surface residues do little harm to
non-plant feeding insects. Spinosad residues on the leaf surface are be
broken down by sunlight. Half-lives for spinosyn A were 1.6 to 16 days
depending on the amount of sunlight received (Saunders and Brett 1997).
Fate in water: When spinosad is applied to water, very little breakdown
(hydrolysis) occurs, and it can be persistent. However, in water exposed to
sunlight, photodegradation occurs rapidly (Saunders and Brett 1997). In the
absence of sunlight, the half lives of spinosyn A and D are at least 200
days.
Soil Persistence: Soil microbes degrade spinosad into other spinosyns that
can persist in the soil for several months and remain biologically active.
Repeated applications could lead to some build-up of spinosyns in soil. A
10-month field study in California and Mississippi showed that no degradation
products were found in soil below 24 inches (Saunders and Brett 1997).
SPINOSAD MATERIAL FACT SHEET
142 ORGANIC RESOURCE GUIDE
Leaching: Spinosyn A is more water-soluble than the other component of
spinosad, spinosyn D, and therefore was the subject of soil mobility studies.
However, spinosyn A and its soil metabolites bind to soil and have low soil
mobility.
Wildlife: Spinosad shows slight toxicity to birds, moderate toxicity to fish,
and slight to moderate toxicity to aquatic invertebrates. It is highly toxic to
bees in laboratory tests and is highly toxic to oysters (US EPA 1997 a,b) and
other marine mollusks (Dow 2001).
Beneficial insects: Care must be taken when applying spinosad while honeybees
are foraging; after residues dry (a few hours) it is far less toxic to
bees (Bret et al. 1997). Spray droplets can also harm Trichogramma wasps
and other parasitoids (Suh et al., 2000; Tillman and Mullrooney, 2000; Bret
et al., 1997). However, once the deposits dry, they are generally safe for
beneficial insects. Studies in sweet corn have shown spinosad to be very
effective against the European corn borer, while conserving its natural
enemy complex (Musser and Shelton, 2003).
Other non-targets: Effects of spinosad on earthworms and soil microorganisms
have been investigated in the laboratory. Results indicated that application
rates of 25-150 g/ha should not cause significant effect on soil
microflora respiration. Earthworms were not very susceptible to spinosad
(LD50 > 970 mg/kg, Jachetta 2001). There is little research on the impact of
spinosad on insect soil detritivores and their predators, including ants and
springtails. However, since some spinosad products are targeted against
fire ants, a soil dwelling species, it is likely that there would be some impact
against other soil fauna
EFFICACY
Spinosad is principally toxic to plant-eating insects in the orders
Lepidoptera (caterpillars), Coleoptera (beetles), Thysanoptera (thrips), and
Diptera (flies). It is not a plant systemic, but will penetrate leaves to some
extent and therefore has activity against some leafminers. Spinosad is not
effective at controlling mites at normal use rates (Thompson et al., 2000;
Cowles et al., 2000; Tjosvold and Chaney, 2001), although at high rates or
in combination with some adjuvants it has miticidal activity (Gilrein 2004).

[Mona Miller]

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1679&p=7810&hilit=pumpkin#p7809
5th instar caterpillars can be fed pumpkin/butternut squash. See the topic above.

[Joylin]

thanks so much but I still has a queston, will it harm the butterflies or if they put eggs on them would this kill the egs, I have some more milkweed thatI can fed my catts that was not sprayed, but i am concern of the adult butterflies,I do not want to do a massacre and kill all my babies that I have raise them with so much love, they stay in my garden, I tagged all my butterflies before I release them with liquid paper, he color ones, I have coded a color for each week and has five color so each time i see one I can determine how old is she or he and when she was born. I felt so bad after I noticed what I did, I use this conserve thing on my lettuce hidroponic culture. But I made a huge mistake shame on me, I hope this doesnt cause trouble.

[Mona Miller]

The eggs, it would probably harm due to the fact that when they hatch (3-5 days), they will eat that egg shell and the plants. The adults supposedly, it will not harm, but I don't trust pesticides. Some of the organics are even bad for butterflies. Maybe you could cover them with some type of netting to keep the butterflies off for at least 3 weeks. Are they in full sun? It said that sun will help to break down the chemical. Butterflies are very sensitive to herbicides and pesticides.

[Joylin]

yes they are on full sun. Right now theres no eggs on it but I am expecting the new butterflies that has been released to lay eggs on them in about 3-5 days. I am goig to follow your recomendation to put a net on it, I have a sock but do you think it can harm the plant, its the big sock i bought from this site for catts feeding on a branch. What do you think. After how many days in the sun exposure sould it broke down? You have been very helpfull thanks so much!!!!!

[Mona Miller]

If you read the information that I posted, it says 3 weeks or longer. Unfortunately, the only way to tell is to put a caterpillar on it and see what happens. When pesticides are taken into the leaves, they can last up to 2 months. Butterflies are very sensitive. The socks allow the plants to grow and the caterpillars to eat them.

If you purchased from Live Monarch, I have those large socks and they would work for protecting the butterflies from using the milkweed. I've used them on common milkweed outdoors. Just have to make sure there are no pests when you enclose the caterpillars. I mulch the bottom of the sock with pinebark mulch. I would recommend not buying the sock with the plastic view portion, they heat up too fast.

http://livemonarch.com/store_enclosures.php
May have to email to ask for the socks without plastic.

[Paul Cherubini]

Joylin, no one on this forum has any practical working experience with Spinosad and monarch caterpillars or adults. So you will have to do your own experimenting to determine how toxic the residues are and for how long.

[Joylin]

I will let you know yes I will experiment with it and lets see what happens Thanks so much and I let you all know I will post soon whith my comments, As a Marine Biologist all experiments makes me like a cat with catnip crazy al love enjoy all the benefits of it. I let you know .
Thanks all

[Mona Miller]

Let's suppose they don't die. Do we know what the pesticide is doing to their genetics or to the environment? I know that I read that it last even longer in the soil.

[Joylin]

I was planning to study all the facts even the genetic ones, Dont worry I will let you know as I have the results. I will study how it may afect the butterfly, and the catts, as theres no study of this registered, I already put the plant in isolation and I will check out its variation of components each day and when it gets neutralized. I let you all know so the concern is off. I wanted to know before I made this effort if anyone could have a clue or has passed this before, as theres no one that has passed this situation I will check out and study it ad let you all know. Hope this help others. Please DO NOT USE MALATION is cancerigenous, In the beguining i work with it but now I do not deal with pesticides, If anyone needs it well use ut but I do not encourage persons to use this. I have stop usin it for severa; years now.

[Joylin]

The butterflies are ok, the catts has eaten I put 2 on these leaves only and 2 on other plant, they seems to be ok, they are the same batch and are growing fine, I did a leaf study and the leaves are now free from spinosad, Lest keep u informed for the 3 and 4 instar,

[Mona Miller]

Let us know how they fair. Good to hear they are not dying.