Overwintering sites

[aragorn]

I would like to know how manies overwintering sites are known yet...
is 12 right?!?

[Paul Cherubini]

Yes, 12 known cluster sites in the Monarch Biosphere Region, but typically
only 9 or so of the 12 are occupied in any given year. Some years a particular site is not occupied and other years it is.

There are also small unpublicized overwintering sites south and east of Mexico City and west of the Monarch Biosphere Region, but they
are not checked by scientists every year and do not appear to be occupied by the butterflies every year.

[freda]

there's a thread on here about overwintering in Florida...I'm interested in that one, too

[Mona Miller]

I would like to know how many overwintering sites are known yet...
is 12 right?!?

http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/monarc ... es1_2.html
The Location of the Monarch Overwintering Sites in Mexico
Why is This Place So Special for Monarchs?
Monarchs travel to a very small region in Mexico from across eastern North America.
You can see it on the map below. The region is only 73 miles wide and, within the region,
only 12 places have the habitat the butterflies need to survive winter.

http://www.monarchwatch.org/blog/2008/0 ... rro-pelon/
Survival is only possible if the canopy of trees is not lost.

But, there are also located in the USA with smaller numbers of butterflies.
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/learning/te ... ways.phtml
Map of fall migration and overwintering areas.

[Paul Cherubini]

http://www.monarchwatch.org/blog/2008/0 ... rro-pelon/
Survival is only possible if the canopy of trees is not lost.

I routinely find overwintering monarchs forming their clusters where there are openings in the canopy like this:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/m ... /chi94.jpg

[Mona Miller]

If the weather becomes harsh, then the butterflies are susceptible to freezing to death with openings in the canopy.
http://monarchwatch.org/blog/2008/01/29 ... rro-pelon/
Read the Monarch Watch Blog for an account of what happens when the tree cover has been destroyed by logging.

[Paul Cherubini]

If the weather becomes harsh, then the butterflies are susceptible to freezing to death with openings in the canopy.
http://monarchwatch.org/blog/2008/01/29 ... rro-pelon/ Read the Monarch Watch Blog for an account of what happens when the tree cover has been destroyed by logging.

Unfortunately, the Blog didn't provide any specific information about what happened to the butterflies. The Blog offered this vague account: "many of them died, apparently after a cold night or two in January. If there were survivors, they had dispersed long before our visit [in early March]." That vague account does not permit one to determine with certainty if a high percentage of the butterflies died or if a high percentage dispersed to other areas on the Cerro Pelon mountain. The Blog isn't even certain when some of them died or certain if they died from freezing. The Blog also didn't offer any information about whether or not it was typical for the monarchs to stay at this location through the winter before or after it was logged. In his publications Bill Calvert has said some small colonies are "unstable" and "may not persist the whole winter." The Blog also didn't offer any photos of the general tree cover in the area. It could be there was better tree cover nearby, but the butterflies "chose" not to use it as is typical at some of the other Mexican sites: http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/m ... /chi94.jpg The Blog also didn't provide any information about the specific location of the site. So we can't look it up on Google Earth to get a first hand look at the tree cover of the cluster site or it's surroundings.

[Mona Miller]

Perhaps pictures (video) are worth a thousand words:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5q_SQL_8lM
Lighthawk Reconnaisance Monarch Butterfly Biosphere Reserve
L.P Brower discusses the Monarch butterflies in their wintering grounds in Mexico, and the illegal logging that threatens them.

[Paul Cherubini]

Perhaps pictures (video) are worth a thousand words:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5q_SQL_8lM
Lighthawk Reconnaisance Monarch Butterfly Biosphere Reserve
L.P Brower discusses the Monarch butterflies in their wintering grounds in Mexico, and the illegal logging that threatens them.

I saw that video, but it doesn't show any recent logging in or close to any locations where the monarch overwintering clusters are located.

I've been visiting Mexico since 1990 and the forests where the overwintering colonies are located look the same in my most recent (2005) photos as they did back in 1990 http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/m ... h/9005.jpg (except for a few small areas that burned during the forest fires of 1998 and in those cases the butterflies relocated to nearby unburned areas on the same mountains).

With regard to the idea the butterflies are susceptible to freezing to death if the forest has been thinned or if there openings in the canopy, experience teaches us ALL the colonies are susceptible to freezing because ALL have been suffered heavy mortality at one time or another including the colonies like Herrada with the most dense tree cover: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/herrada.jpg

So the idea that an intact forest canopy will protect the butterflies from massive mortality during severe winter storms and freezes remains a theoretical concept that has never been substantiated by real life experiences.

[Mona Miller]

The news articles from Mexican, Canadian, and American reporters do not support your opinion of no deforestation.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/29/2840/
As Butterflies Die, So Goes a Way of Life
Logging in Mexico puts wildlife, livelihoods at risk

http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/031 ... 1061.shtml
Monitoring the monarch
University of Georgia researchers helping to study butterfly parasite and its effects
Good article on OE and Deforestation

[Paul Cherubini]

The news articles from Mexican, Canadian, and American reporters do not support your opinion of no deforestation.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/29/2840/
As Butterflies Die, So Goes a Way of Life
Logging in Mexico puts wildlife, livelihoods at risk

http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/031 ... 1061.shtml

Those articles don't show photos of recent forest thinning or clear cut logging in or close to any of the locations where the monarch overwintering clusters are located.

[Mona Miller]

Google earth does not show recent photos. My house for example, I purchased in 2002 and the satellite photos are prior to us buying it.

How much damage to the forest has happened in 6 years?

This is a 2004 update from Monarch Watch:
http://www.monarchwatch.org/update/2004/0512.html#1
Illegal Logging at Sierra Chincua - by Chip Taylor

Is there a reason that many scientists believe this logging is going on, but you do not?

http://www.monarchwatch.org/update/2005/1130.html#7
Illegal Logging Continues in Mexico

http://www.mbsf.org/newsletter_2006.pdf
Page 7 of 12
Aerial photograph of an illegal logging operation in the Cresensio Morales ejido. Monarchs have formed colonies on this mountain for at least 5 winters. Between March 2004 and March 2006, 130 hectares of forest were severely degraded or clear cut, despite the fact that this area is in the core zone of the Monarch Butterfly Biosphere Reserve. Photo taken during our Lighthawk, Inc. flight on 3 February 2006.

[Paul Cherubini]

This is a 2004 update from Monarch Watch:
http://www.monarchwatch.org/update/2004/0512.html#1
Illegal Logging at Sierra Chincua - by Chip Taylor Is there a reason that many scientists believe this logging is going on, but you do not?
http://www.monarchwatch.org/update/2005/1130.html#7
Illegal Logging Continues in Mexico
http://www.mbsf.org/newsletter_2006.pdf
Page 7 of 12
Aerial photograph of an illegal logging operation in the Cresensio Morales ejido. Photo taken during our Lighthawk, Inc. flight on 3 February 2006.

None of those links provided any photos of recent forest thinning or clear cut logging in or close to any of the locations where the monarch overwintering clusters are located. Example: In this photo: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/crescendo.jpg you can see an area that was logged, but the author of the article did not claim the monarchs had ever formed overwintering clusters in or close to the actual trees that were cut down. Same situation with regard to the illegal logging at the Chincua site - the article did not claim the monarchs had ever formed overwintering clusters in or close to the actual trees that were cut down.

[Paul Cherubini]

If the weather becomes harsh, then the butterflies are susceptible to freezing to death with openings in the canopy.
http://monarchwatch.org/blog/2008/01/29 ... rro-pelon/
Read the Monarch Watch Blog for an account of what happens when the tree cover has been destroyed by logging.

But what if the butterflies prefer to cluster at open canopy locations in the forest even when more closed canopy locations are available nearby? Here's a photo Dr. Lincoln Brower took of part of the El Rosario colony in Feb. 2006:

[Mona Miller]

Journey North -- 2/14/2008
http://www.learner.org/jnorth/monarch/s ... 21408.html
"Concerns About Size of Sierra Chincua Colony
The Chincua colony is tiny this year and has been small for several years. (See graph.) But this year the colony is so small it really worries me. I think the progressive degradation of the forest is beginning to show its effect. The Sierra Chincua was a pristine forest years ago, but now the forest has been severely damaged by illegal logging. (See satellite image.)"
http://www.learner.org/jnorth/monarch/s ... 21408.html
Graph
http://www.learner.org/jnorth/images/gr ... Dec06.html
Satellite Image

[Paul Cherubini]

Journey North -- 2/14/2008
http://www.learner.org/jnorth/monarch/s ... 21408.html
I think the progressive degradation of the forest is beginning to show its effect. The Sierra Chincua was a pristine forest years ago, but now the forest has been severely damaged by illegal logging. (See satellite image.)"

This location of the Chincua colony depicted in the Journey North photo above is actually far away from the area designated "illegal logging". The area designated "illegal logging" is actually pine forest - not oyamel fir forest - and is mostly below the altitude where the monarchs overwinter in the Chincua sanctuary. So it's highly questionable as to whether the fire "degraded" any butterfly habitat. No information is provided in the Journey North article about when this alledged "illegal logging" took place. In 1998 a forest fire burned the area designated "illegal logging" as you can see in the April 2000 infared NASA photo below (to the right of the Journey North photo). Eligio Garcia told me that salvage loggers went into this burned area soon after the 1998 fire to salvage the partially burned wood that was left. The loggers did not cut down the few remaining standing trees that weren't burned (the uncut trees are still visible in the Journey North photo). While this salvage logging may have been illegal, it was not significantly damaging to the forest because the forest fire had done the main damage.

[Mona Miller]

Many of the fires are caused by the illegal loggers. After the forest has burned, they get permits to do salvage logging.

The fires are so numerous in Mexico that I think they affect the weather with all the smoke that is going into the atmosphere.

http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/firemaps/
MODIS Rapid Response System Global Fire Maps

Brower and other scientists are bringing to light the terrible affects of illegal logging. The facts are the facts.

[Paul Cherubini]

Many of the fires are caused by the illegal loggers. After the forest has burned, they get permits to do salvage logging.
The fires are so numerous in Mexico that I think they affect the weather with all the smoke that is going into the atmosphere.
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/firemaps/ MODIS Rapid Response System Global Fire Maps Brower and other scientists are bringing to light the terrible affects of illegal logging. The facts are the facts.

Do you know of any major forest fires that have occurred in any of the monarch sanctuaries since the drought of 1998? I can't think of any off hand except for one on the north slopes of Cerro Pelon back around the year 2000. To my knowledge, during the past 10 years the illegal logging has occurred either away from actual mid and late winter cluster areas or below the altitude where the mid and late winter clusters are located. Can you enlighten me as what specific "terrible effects" the illegal logging has had on the overwintering butterflies in any of the sanctuaries using case history examples? Thanks.

[Paul Cherubini]

Journey North -- 2/14/2008
http://www.learner.org/jnorth/monarch/s ... 21408.html
"Concerns About Size of Sierra Chincua Colony
The Chincua colony is tiny this year and has been small for several years. (See graph.) But this year the colony is so small it really worries me. I think the progressive degradation of the forest is beginning to show its effect.

Below is a graph I made of the actual census data for Chincua for the past 14 years http://tinyurl.com/2rufpo as compared to all the colonies combined http://tinyurl.com/39o7xg I don't see any obvious long term pattern of population decline at Chincua in relation to the population of all the colonies combined. I think we will need another 5 years worth of data before it will become clearly apparent whether or not a downward trend has begun.

[Mona Miller]

The situation has been going down hill for more than five years. The forest is not going to regrow in that short a time. Therefore, it would be a waste of time to wait and see what happens since logging is continuing at a rate greater than reforestation.

Comparing precentages to hectares leaves one thinking that the amounts are larger. The reality is that of the 4.61 hectares estimate of the total population in 2007-2008, the Chincua colony is less than 10% (.29 hectares) of the total population as compared to an over 25% (2.84 hectares) in 2003-2004 according to your percentage graph. That is a decrease of over 15% in five years in the Chincua colony alone.



It will take longer than 5 years for the forest to regrow. The Michoacan Reforestation Fund and La Cruz Habitat Protection Project has planted over 2,111,565 trees over the past nine years. For more information check out this website:
http://www.michoacanmonarchs.org/

[Paul Cherubini]

The forest fire and follow up salvage logging occurred at Chincua during the summer of 1998, but the percentage of overwintering monarchs in Mexico occupying the Chincua site did not decline in the winter of 1998 and shows no clear pattern of decline in subsequent winters: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/chincuac.jpg

To my knowledge, the Michoacan Reforestation Fund didn't conduct any replanting of the areas hit by forest fires and salvage logging on Chincua in 1998. My understanding is the Michoacan Reforestation Fund plants pines well below the altitude where the monarchs overwinter, hence the project is not really restoring or creating butterfly cluster, nectar or drinking water habitats.

[Mona Miller]

http://monarchwatch.org/blog/2008/01/29 ... rro-pelon/
New Tree Nursery Near Cerro Pelon
"The nursery was inaugurated on 8 December 2007. The goal is to produce a total of 800,000 seedlings per year (oyamels, pines, and cedars) that can be planted at different altitudes and slopes in both the core and buffer zones of the reserve. The nursery will have social and economic benefits. By employing 15 full time workers and 30 others during the planting season, the nursery will contribute to the economic and social fabric of the community. Hopefully, the jobs will reduce emigration to the cities and will lead to community directed sustainable forest management."

http://monarchwatch.org/blog/2008/02/05 ... in-mexico/
Crackdown on Illegal Logging in Mexico

[Paul Cherubini]

New Tree Nursery Near Cerro Pelon "The nursery was inaugurated on 8 December 2007. The goal is to produce a total of 800,000 seedlings per year (oyamels, pines, and cedars) that can be planted at different altitudes and slopes in both the core and buffer zones of the reserve. The nursery will have social and economic benefits.

According to the 2007-08 WWF report, all three traditional overwintering sites on the Cerro Pelon mountain were occupied by monarchs this year:
E. Mesas Altas de Xoconusco 0.38 hectares
C. I. San Juan Xoconusco 0.43 hectares
E. El Capulín 0.25 hectares
Also, the percentage (23%) of overwintering monarchs in Mexico occupying these Cerro Pelon sites was unusually high this year. So it's not clear to me the butterflies are running short on cluster tree habitat and need this tree planting or that it will ever benefit them in any substantial way. Large acreages of the butterfly reserves called the "core zones" have never had monarchs clustering in the trees, so that is why replanting burned or logged areas may never help the butterflies. But I do understand the local people in Mexico, just like people in timber growing areas of the USA, need to grow as much timber as they can for future harvest purposes.

[Fishslime]

thank you both for all this great information - I was under the impression that the size of the wintering over colonies of Monarchs was determined by how many Monarchs migrate there from the USA and surrounding areas - I'm sure the loss of these trees is important -the logging must be stopped - (many less migrants noted in fall 2007 in my area-PA)

[Mona Miller]

Access the website below to read about the Monarch population in Mexico and the Status of that population:

http://monarchwatch.org/blog/category/m ... on-status/
Overwintering Monarch Population 2007-2008
It’s official - the monarch population numbers are low again. Measured at 4.61 hectares, this year’s overwintering population is the third lowest since detailed measures of all overwintering colonies began in 1993. The three lowest populations in this 15-year record ...

Monarch Population Status
Monday, January 7th, 2008 at 3:00 pm by Monarch Watch
The monarch population in the eastern part of the breeding range was higher than normal for the second year in a row. Although the 2007 fall migration was smaller than normal in the upper mid-west, perhaps due to a mid ...

[Mike Quinn]

I shot this from a prominent overlook along one of the main Sierra Chincua trails. It might have been at "Prince Phillip Overlook" (??), however, I remember noting that I didn't see much deforestation at the mid and upper elevations where the monarchs roost. Does anyone know where I might have taken this photo? Also, does anyone have a known photo shot from Prince Phillip Overlook? Thanks, Mike

[Mike Quinn]

Journey North -- 2/14/2008
http://www.learner.org/jnorth/monarch/s ... 21408.html
I think the progressive degradation of the forest is beginning to show its effect. The Sierra Chincua was a pristine forest years ago, but now the forest has been severely damaged by illegal logging. (See satellite image.)"

This location of the Chincua colony depicted in the Journey North photo above is actually far away from the area designated "illegal logging". The area designated "illegal logging" is actually pine forest - not oyamel fir forest - and is mostly below the altitude where the monarchs overwinter in the Chincua sanctuary. So it's highly questionable as to whether the fire "degraded" any butterfly habitat. No information is provided in the Journey North article about when this alledged "illegal logging" took place. In 1998 a forest fire burned the area designated "illegal logging" as you can see in the April 2000 infared NASA photo below (to the right of the Journey North photo). Eligio Garcia told me that salvage loggers went into this burned area soon after the 1998 fire to salvage the partially burned wood that was left. The loggers did not cut down the few remaining standing trees that weren't burned (the uncut trees are still visible in the Journey North photo). While this salvage logging may have been illegal, it was not significantly damaging to the forest because the forest fire had done the main damage.

I'm confused. Don't the white squares immediately adjacent to the burned area (in the right photo) denote former monarch colonies??? The lower ones are at the same elevation (or even lower) as the burn, which by the way, may have been arson set in order to conduct the subsequent salvage operation...

[Paul Cherubini]

I'm confused. Don't the white squares immediately adjacent to the burned area (in the right photo) denote former monarch colonies??? The lower ones are at the same elevation (or even lower) as the burn, which by the way, may have been arson set in order to conduct the subsequent salvage operation...

Perhaps this photo will help you: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4 ... cuafin.jpg The white dots denote all known historical monarch cluster sites on Chincua including autumnal sites, midwinter sites and late winter sites. Example: the white dots in the Arroyo Hondo just above the burned area are where monarchs sometimes cluster for a short while in late winter.

As you can see from the photo, the 1998 fires did not burn down any cluster site trees or even get real near any of them. The fire just burned to the top of the ridge. The purpose of showing the 2006 vs 2000 vs 1973 photos is to show that except for the areas that burned in 1998, the tree cover at Chincua has not hardly changed the past 34 years. As Jurgen Hoth has said, the tree cover amounts to a "mosiac" of patches of dense forest, thinner forest with numerous little to medium sized openings, both natural and man made. The forest was this way back in 1973 which is why, at the 1997 Monarch conference in Morelia, Jurgen Hoth publicly objected to Lincoln Brower's use of the term "pristine" to describe the condition of the forest in the 1970's.

With regard to the suggestion that the fire(s) may have been arson set, see http://whyfiles.org/083isotope/4.html where Lincoln is quoted saying: "People are setting fires [to clear agricultural land]. The fires get out of hand and get up into the preserves. [During the winter of 1998-1998] there were dozens of fires in and near the butterfly areas, and not one was from natural causes." So the forest fires could be accidental, not arson. Indeed you will note there is a long estiablished agricultural clearing immediately below the burned forest area at Chincua
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4 ... cuafin.jpg I suspect that farmers were setting fires in open fields to burn the prior year's agricultural wastes and sometimes those fires got out of hand during the extreme drought of the spring / summer of 1998.

[Paul Cherubini]

I'm confused. Don't the white squares immediately adjacent to the burned area (in the right photo) denote former monarch colonies??? The lower ones are at the same elevation (or even lower) as the burn, which by the way, may have been arson set in order to conduct the subsequent salvage operation...

Perhaps this photo will help you: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4 ... cuafin.jpg The white dots denote all known historical monarch cluster sites on Chincua including autumnal sites, midwinter sites and late winter sites. Example: the white dots in the Arroyo Hondo just above the burned area are where monarchs sometimes cluster for a short while in late winter.

As you can see from the photo, the 1998 fires did not burn down any cluster site trees or even get real near any of them. The fire just burned to the top of a ridge. The purpose of showing the 2006 vs 2000 vs 1973 photos is to show that except for the areas that burned in 1998, the tree cover at Chincua has not hardly changed the past 34 years. As Jurgen Hoth has said, the tree cover amounts to a "mosiac" of patches of dense forest, thinner forest with numerous little to medium sized openings, both natural and man made. The forest was this way back in 1973 which is why, at the 1997 Monarch conference in Morelia, Jurgen Hoth publicly objected to Lincoln Brower's use of the term "pristine" to describe the condition of the forest in the 1970's.

With regard to the suggestion that the fire(s) may have been arson set, see http://whyfiles.org/083isotope/4.html where Lincoln is quoted saying: "People are setting fires [to clear agricultural land]. The fires get out of hand and get up into the preserves. [During the winter of 1998-1998] there were dozens of fires in and near the butterfly areas, and not one was from natural causes." So the forest fires in the butterfly preserves could be accidental, not arson. Indeed you will note there is a long estiablished agricultural clearing immediately below the burned forest area at Chincua http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4 ... cuafin.jpg so that is where the fire appears to have started and then it looks like it ran up to the top of the ridge and extinguished itselt.

[Paul Cherubini]

Does anyone know where I might have taken this photo?

I've taken photos from that same overlook. I believe it's located east of the Prince Phillip overlook and east of the summit of Cerro Prieto. I put a yellow X in the following photo http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/overlook.jpg denoting where I think you took your overlook photo

[Mike Quinn]

As you can see from the photo, the 1998 fires did not burn down any cluster site trees or even get real near any of them.

The 1998 fire got within 10-20 meters of known monarch cluster trees. I count seven monarch clusters between Arroyo Honda and the 1998 burn site. The distance betw. the Arroyo and the burn is 200m at its narrowest.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/chin.jpg

There's little reason to believe that monarchs didn't previously occupy the forest that burned in 1998 as it's south facing and many of the monarch clusters along the arroyo are below the burn site.

Google Map showing Arroyo in blue and burn outline in red: http://tinyurl.com/28fylc

[Paul Cherubini]

There's little reason to believe that monarchs didn't previously occupy the forest that burned in 1998 as it's south facing and many of the monarch clusters along the arroyo are below the burn site.
Google Map showing Arroyo in blue and burn outline in red: http://tinyurl.com/28fylc

The historical monarch cluster sites (white dots) in the lower reaches of the Arroyo Hondo are only around 9,000 - 9,500 feet in elevation and historically have been occupied only briefly in late winter during some (but not all) overwintering seasons because there is drinking water in the Arroyo.

The adjacent burned area, by contrast, is a comparatively hot (especially in late winter) dry southern exposure that's only 9,000 - 9,800 feet elevation so it doesn't surprize me that no mid or late winter cluster sites have ever been recorded in the burned area.

[Paul Cherubini]

There's little reason to believe that monarchs didn't previously occupy the forest that burned in 1998 as it's south facing and many of the monarch clusters along the arroyo are below the burn site.
Google Map showing Arroyo in blue and burn outline in red: http://tinyurl.com/28fylc

The historical monarch cluster sites (white dots) in the lower reaches of the Arroyo Hondo are only around 9,000 - 9,500 feet in elevation and historically have been occupied only briefly in late winter during some (but not all) overwintering seasons because there is drinking water in the Arroyo.

The adjacent burned area, by contrast, is a comparatively hot (especially in late winter) dry southern exposure that's only 9,000 - 9,800 feet elevation so it doesn't surprize me that no mid or late winter cluster sites have ever been recorded in the burned area.

[Mike Quinn]

... it doesn't surprize me that no mid or late winter cluster sites have ever been recorded in the burned area.

Emphasis added.

Not "ever" as in ten thousand years? Or not "ever" in the handful of years that the colonies were regularly monitored prior to the 1998 burn?

[Mike Quinn]

The historical monarch cluster sites (white dots) in the lower reaches of the Arroyo Hondo are only around 9,000 - 9,500 feet in elevation and historically have been occupied only briefly in late winter during some (but not all) overwintering seasons because there is drinking water in the Arroyo.

The adjacent burned area, by contrast, is a comparatively hot (especially in late winter) dry southern exposure that's only 9,000 - 9,800 feet elevation so it doesn't surprize me that no mid or late winter cluster sites have ever been recorded in the burned area.

I'm not aware of any data to support your statement that the south facing slope south of the arroyo is any hotter than the south facing slope north of the arroyo. These two nearly adjacent slopes overlap in elevation.

Google map of area: http://tinyurl.com/2htwnw

[Paul Cherubini]

I'm not aware of any data to support your statement that the south facing slope south of the arroyo is any hotter than the south facing slope north of the arroyo. These two nearly adjacent slopes overlap in elevation. Google map of area: http://tinyurl.com/2htwnw

Here is a photo http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/core.jpg where I plotted (white dots) the altitudes of the lowest cluster sites ever recorded (from 1975-2000) on the south face of the Chincua reserve. As you can see, the burn area is generally slightly lower in elevation than the cluster sites. That means the burn area is generally warmer as I originally claimed. I also claimed the burn area is drier than the cluster sites. I think it's drier because it's located further away from the Chincua mountain massif, so the humidity would be generally lower (less intense upslope adiabatic cooling, hence less atmospheric moisture accumulation & cloud cover.).

[Mona Miller]

"The Cloud, Mountain, Fog, Forest Connection"
http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/monarc ... ipLPB.html
"If you look at the south side of the Sierra Chincua when there’s a lot of moisture in the air, these big, beautiful clouds form right on the top of the mountains..."

"Monarchs, Mountains and Moisture"
http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/monarch/sl/1/3.html
"Moisture is crucial for the butterflies’ overwintering success in Mexico. I hypothesize that one of the reasons the butterflies choose to overwinter where they do is because the high altitude mountains capture moisture. These pictures tell the story..."

http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/monarch/sl/1/12.html
"The high altitude mountains capture moisture through the process of adiabatic condensation. This process occurs when moisture-laden winds blow up and over the mountains."

http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/monarch/sl/1/13.html
Adiabatic Condensation

http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/monarch/sl/1/14.html
"At the high altitudes, the moisture condenses as water droplets on the needles of the Oyamels and pines"

"Mexico's Wet and Dry Seasons"
http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/monarc ... ryLPB.html
Listen to Dr. Brower's audio--very interesting.



"Where Do Monarchs Get Water in the Winter?"
http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/monarc ... bs1Ab.html
"Dew is sometimes the only water monarchs can find!
The monarchs are in Mexico during Mexico's dry season. Dew is important for thirsty monarch butterflies."

[Paul Cherubini]

"Monarchs, Mountains and Moisture"
http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/monarch/sl/1/3.html
"Moisture is crucial for the butterflies’ overwintering success in Mexico. I hypothesize that one of the reasons the butterflies choose to overwinter where they do is because the high altitude mountains capture moisture. These pictures tell the story..."

Yes at Cerro Pelon there is a large opening in the oyamel fir and cedar forest at 10,000 feet where the monarchs commonly drink dew water that forms overnight.
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/tresa.jpg Here's what this opening looks like from the air: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/tresb.jpg I'm not sure what may have created this opening and why no forest grows there. Soil problem?

Over at the El Rosario reserve we have an analogous habitat situation. For more than 30 years the monarchs have commonly clustered next to a large patch of open ground at 10,000 feet where they also obtain drinking water:
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/elrosc.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/m ... elrmea.jpg
However the opening at El Rosario was definately created by logging (many decades ago) and during the summer months farmers grow crops like oats or corn in this opening.

[Mike Quinn]

Here is a photo http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/core.jpg where I plotted (white dots) the altitudes of the lowest cluster sites ever recorded (from 1975-2000) on the south face of the Chincua reserve. As you can see, the burn area is generally slightly lower in elevation than the cluster sites. That means the burn area is generally warmer as I originally claimed. I also claimed the burn area is drier than the cluster sites. I think it's drier because it's located further away from the Chincua mountain massif, so the humidity would be generally lower (less intense upslope adiabatic cooling, hence less atmospheric moisture accumulation & cloud cover.).

The burn burn area is not particularly lower in elevation, but it is certainly now hotter as almost no trees regrew there. Mike

[Paul Cherubini]

The burn area is not particularly lower in elevation, but it is certainly now hotter as almost no trees regrew there. Mike

The last time I took photos of the burn area (Jan. 2005) it appeared to be teaming with lots of new small trees:

Distant view: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/chinfirea.jpg
Closer view: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/chinfiree.jpg
Closest view: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4 ... afired.jpg

[Mona Miller]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/07/scien ... ref=slogin
Loggers Invaded Butterfly Haven, Photos Show

[Paul Cherubini]

http://monarchwatch.org/blog/2008/01/29/new-tree-nursery-near-cerro-pelon/ New Tree Nursery Near Cerro Pelon
"The nursery was inaugurated on 8 December 2007. The goal is to produce a total of 800,000 seedlings per year (oyamels, pines, and cedars) that can be planted at different altitudes and slopes in both the core and buffer zones of the reserve. The nursery will have social and economic benefits. By employing 15 full time workers and 30 others during the planting season, the nursery will contribute to the economic and social fabric of the community. Hopefully, the jobs will reduce emigration to the cities and will lead to community directed sustainable forest management."

In all my travels to the overwintering areas in Mexico for the past 18 years I havn't seen any evidence that logged or burnt areas need any restoration because the forest grows back on it's own. Example: Here is what a swath of oyamel fir forest in the overwintering area next to the Chincua reserve looked like after a utility company clear cut a pathway through it to make room for utility lines: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/utilityb.jpg

And here is what another utility line clear cut looked like 12 years after cutting: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/utilityc.jpg
As you can see, the forest recovered on it's own without human assistance.

Same thing happens after serious forest fires. Example: In 1998 there were several serious crown fires in the overwintering area due to an unusually severe drought. Ten years later, the burned out forest is rapidly recovering on its own: http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/chivati.jpg

[Mona Miller]

I am afraid your opinion on logging in Mexico and the damage that has occurred does not match that of the top Monarch scientists.

http://www.learner.org/jnorth/monarch/s ... 8.html#How
"It is with great regret that my colleagues and I have to be the bearers of bad news," wrote Dr. Lincoln Brower as he revealed a new satellite image of the monarch winter habitat.

The image shows a major illegal logging operation in the core zone of the monarch butterfly reserve, devastating one of the monarch's 12 winter sites in Mexico. The butterfly site, called "Lomas de Aparicio," is a few km south of the largest overwintering area, "El Rosario." Over 1,100 acres (450 hectares) have been cut since 2004. The Mexican government has failed to enforce the law against logging in this area of the Reserve for at least four years, noted Dr. Brower. >>"

Please consult the above Journey North website for satellite images of the devastation.

[Mona Miller]

Professor Lincoln Brower the famous Monarch Butterfly expert explains the devastation:
http://www.theworld.org/node/16517

Animation that shows the destruction.
http://www.learner.org/jnorth/images/gr ... imated.gif

[ChrysCook]

Here's a great way to help with the reforestation efforts. It's a link to donate to LCHPP.

http://shop.theanimalrescuesite.com/sto ... ry&index=5

www.theanimalrescuesite.com is wonderful. You can just click to cause the sponsors to pay for food & care for rescued animals, rainforest protection, etc.

www.lchpp.org is La Cruz Habitat Protection Project's site, well-worth a look! They're a US non-profit organization.

[Paul Cherubini]

The most famous monarch overwintering site in the USA is the one at Pacific Grove, California. But it was seriously degraded last September when City officials approved pruning the branches right above the cluster tree branches. Below are some before and after photos.

Back on Dec. 9, 2008 many thousands of monarchs were thickly clustered on the south face of the eucalyptus grove at the Monarch Grove Sanctuary in Pacific Grove like this:
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/4ALC/pg08b.jpg

Now here's a Jan. 9, 2010 view of the same cluster area (without clusters) and also showing some of the branches that the City trimmed above the cluster area in Sept. 2009. This trimming causes too much direct, unfiltered sunlight to strike the branches the butterflies used to cluster on, hence most of the thousands of fall migrant monarchs that arrived at the Sanctuary last Oct and Nov. "decided" to leave as they "judged" the eucalyptus tree cover unsuitable for clustering:
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/4ALC/pg10.jpg

Here are both photos side by side:
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/4ALC/pgcomp.jpg

Since the USA does not publicize the damage it does to it's own overwintering sites, the people in the Monarch Sanctuary region of Mexico will never realize the USA damages overwintering sites too.