Could Insecticides Help Milkweed Restoration Projects?

[Paul Cherubini]

Today I noticed some of the milkweed at Hedgerow Farms (the company that farms milkweed in order to supply seed for milkweed restoration projects) is becoming infested with aphids. If the aphids get bad enough, they may have to spray the milkweeds with insecticide or else the aphids could affect flower development and hence seed pod production.

[Paul Cherubini]

As I expected, Hedgerow Farms (or whomever owns the 1+ acre field of farmed fasicularis milkweed) did in fact spray insecticide on a whole 1+ acre of for aphids during the past week as you can tell from these July 9 vs July 15 photos: (which also means any monarch caterpillars present got sprayed and killed as well)

[blazing star]

So you're proving your thread title wrong in that insecticides cannot help milkweed projects since they're killing the very insect that such project are meant to assist.

[Paul Cherubini]

So you're proving your thread title wrong in that insecticides cannot help milkweed projects since they're killing the very insect that such project are meant to assist.

I think the thread title is accurate; i.e. milkweed restoration projects need alot of milkweed seed and insecticides help maximize seed pod production via killing aphids. I agree your point is also valid; i.e. that spraying the milkweeds for aphids temporarily kills "the very insect that such project are meant to assist". Likewise the spraying will repel wasps and bees from visiting the insecticide contaminated milkweed flowers for several days. So the milkweed farmer in this case needs to be careful he/she doesn't inadvertently drive away the very pollinators that will be needed to produce a good crop of seed pods.

[Mona Miller]

Actually Paul is assuming they sprayed because of the lack of aphids. Is that correct? Did you ask them if they sprayed or did you assume that they sprayed?

[Paul Cherubini]

Actually Paul is assuming they sprayed because of the lack of aphids. Is that correct? Did you ask them if they sprayed or did you assume that they sprayed?

I have decades of experience with milkweed yellow aphids. The aphid population in that one acre+ milkweed field went from millions to near zero in one week. Only spraying a potent insecticide (such as a synthetic pyrethoid) could have reduced the aphid population that dramatically in a blink of an eye. Plus there were no monarchs or honeybees visiting the sprayed milkweed flowers which is what one would expect since synthetic pyrethroids are repellant for several days after spraying. Non-sprayed milkweeds in the vicinity had both monarchs and honeybees: http://www.learner.org/cgi-bin/jnorth/j ... 1342400762

[Mona Miller]

Did you ask Hedgerow Farms if they sprayed?

[Paul Cherubini]

Did you ask Hedgerow Farms if they sprayed?

No, I have no business interogating them when it's obvious they sprayed insecticide. Do you or any of the other anti-insecticide folks have no-spray solution for eliminating aphids on a 1 acre+ field of milkweed?

[Mona Miller]

After you talk with them, then make your claims. You could be sued for slander right now.

[blazing star]

Paul, It's common, throughout your threads, that you infer things, often with a conclusion to support your own agenda. It doesn't help you that you now admitted it. None of your posts have ever seemed to have any validity and this thread proves that.

There are a handful of other tactics to rid a garden of aphids, besides using the toxins you sell. You cannot assume that they applied pesticides. Well, I guess you can if you're Paul and you have an agenda or frequently arrive at ill conclusions.

[Paul Cherubini]

There are a handful of other tactics to rid a garden of aphids, besides using the toxins you sell. You cannot assume that they applied pesticides.

What no-spray solution do you know of for eliminating aphids on a 1 acre+ field of milkweed?

[blazing star]

Why are you changing the subject from the misrepresentation continually provided in your posts?

You, admittedly, posted a thread about how insecticides help milkweed restoration projects based on your pure guesswork (nothing factual) that:

A. the land may have had aphids. Of this, you're not even sure.
B. that the plot may be 1 acre big, and how else could they control a vast aphid breakout that you don't even know existed.
C. that you don't even know if they sprayed insecticides to get rid of what you think may have been aphids.

[Paul Cherubini]

You, admittedly, posted a thread about how insecticides help milkweed restoration projects based on your pure guesswork (nothing factual) that: A. the land may have had aphids. Of this, you're not even sure.

I posted two photos of the aphids, one June 24 on eriocarpa milkweed and one July 9 on fascicularis milkweed. What could be more factual proof of an infestation than photos? Likewise in the related "herbicide helps milkweed restoration" thread, I showed a photo of many herbicided weeds which proves herbicide was used.

It seems you can understand that herbicide use was necessary to help get the milkweed crop established so why should it be hard to understand insecticide use was also necessary when the milkweed crop had become infested with aphids? What no-spray solution do you know of that could have eliminated aphids on a 1 acre+ field of milkweed?

[Mona Miller]

What don't you understand about assuming and not stating facts?

[blazing star]

I never said herbicide is needed to get milkweed crop established. I have said that herbicide (judicious use) is necessary to manage invasive plant species.

Why do you keep asking me questions, of which I would have to infer an opinion based on no known factual variables? I can't do what you do. It's impossible, for me, to think as you do.

[Paul Cherubini]

Bottom line for me is that this thread as well as my herbicide restoration thread shows why broadcast herbicide and insecticide treatments are necessary in California to successfully establish and maintain farmed stands of fascicularis or speciosa milkweed in order to achieve maximum seed pod production.

My thread also shows that certain people who object to milkweed farmers using broadcast herbicide and insecticide treatments have no effective alternatives to offer them.

[Mona Miller]

Chip Taylor posted this to Monarch Watch:
http://www.xerces.org/neonicotinoids-and-bees/
Are Neonicotinoids Killing Bees?
A Review of Research into the Effects of Neonicotinoid Insecticides on Bees, with Recommendations for Action

Systemic pesticides are showing up in nectar and are responsible for pollinator declines.

[Paul Cherubini]

Chip Taylor posted this to Monarch Watch:
http://www.xerces.org/neonicotinoids-and-bees/
Are Neonicotinoids Killing Bees?

How are Neonicotinoids relevant to this thread? This thread is about a major milkweed farmer that suffered an outbreak of aphids which proves the farmer did NOT apply a neonicotinoid insecticide or any other systemic because if he had the aphids would have never built up to begin with.

[Mona Miller]

It's a pesticide. Duh!

[Mona Miller]

Also, duh! You haven't proven that they have sprayed any thing. You are accusing them without proof.

Get the proof or shut up!

[Paul Cherubini]

You haven't proven that they have sprayed any thing

I provided photographic proof of insecticide use, just as I provided photographic proof of herbicide use in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2930 Do you seriously think they used vinegar or dry ice or fire to kill all those weeds?

[blazing star]

You haven't provided proof of anything. You admitted to not knowing, for sure, of anything to which you, in later parts of this thread, state as fact.

[Paul Cherubini]

You haven't provided proof of anything. You admitted to not knowing, for sure, of anything to which you, in later parts of this thread, state as fact.

I am very sure there was a major aphid infestation on July 9 (see photo below) that was taking over the whole one acre+ field of milkweed and very sure the aphids were gone from the whole field July 15. I am very sure only a broadcast treatment with insecticide could have accomplished such an extremely effective kill in a mere 6 days time.

[blazing star]

I know you are "very sure". Meaning you're guessing. As I indicated in my post earlier. It is not beneficial to your character to keep posting your guesses and then to start threads, on your guesses, as if you're speaking of fact. You do this throughout all of your posts.

[Paul Cherubini]

I know you are "very sure". Meaning you're guessing.

I am certain beyond a reasonable doubt - based on my decades long career selling and assisting with the applications of insecticides - that only an application of insecticide could have killed those aphids so completely and thoroughly. I am unaware of any affordable non-insecticide method (e.g. a heavy pressure spray of plain water) that could have killed or washed off those aphids so completely and thoroughly on such a large piece of land within a 6 day time frame. Also, if a non-insecticide method had been used then many male monarchs would have been nectaring and patrolling that vast quantity of blooming milkweed, but none were seen.

[blazing star]

This coming from someone who has been fined with inappropriate use of insecticides.

http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/county/cacl ... tach36.pdf

[blazing star]

I just googled your name. You frequent a lot of chat boards. It seems that my complaint of your flawed logic is universal in majority. You either crave attention, or you have flawed logic in the majority of cases. Just google yourself and "ye shall see".

Is it likely I (and the many other people on the internet debating you) are wrong, or is it likely you are wrong. (note, I didn't put a question mark after that sentence).

[blazing star]

I'm on Page 8 of my Google search. You are an attention hog. Now you're an expert on Toyota manufacturing, too. ha ha

[Paul Cherubini]

This coming from someone who has been fined with inappropriate use of insecticides.
http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/county/cacl ... tach36.pdf

Fined, but not fired, because the incident was an extremely rare and largely unforseeable and unavoidable pesticide exposure accident (thief broke into a animal feed store being fogged automatically near midnight by a timer controlled electric fogger. Police enter the building looking for the robber and get exposed to the fogging insecticide). Anyway this thread will deteriorate rapidly if participants focus on personalities instead of the subject matter at hand - documenting how insecticides help milkweed restoration projects across the nation via killing aphids and other pests that would otherwise severely deminish the milkweed seed pod harvest.

[blazing star]

OK. Returning to the subject matter at hand, you are inferring all of the information contained in your posts. None of it is fact.

I'm not responding to anything else in this thread as it is of no value since it is all based on hypothetical reasoning imparted by you.

[Paul Cherubini]

OK. Returning to the subject matter at hand, you are inferring all of the information contained in your posts. None of it is fact. I'm not responding to anything else in this thread as it is of no value since it is all based on hypothetical reasoning imparted by you.

Here's a shocking fact about the devastating impact of yellow aphids on seed pod production: