Got Cats but am loosing some :(

[terrifly]

I got my first rearing kit from Monarch Watch on Wed. this week and the 1st and 2nd instars have been dying. They are not eating well and shrink up and die.
Can somebody help me figure out what is happening? I just lost another 2 tonight for a total of 5 and there is another one that is not looking very hungry.

I have fresh milkweed from my yard ..I have several different milkweed plants maybe I could switch...I also have tropical and I also have common. I know none of them have been treated and I still wash the leaves.
I santize all containers and tents and started out with new containers for this year.
All of them are each in a seperate container now but I never had any more than 3 in a container at a time and I seperated them by size.
The only thing I am doing different this year is I am rearing indooors. I have all the cats upstairs in a bedroom with the air vent closed and blocked off.

Can anyone help?

Terri

[blazing star]

Have they recently sprayed for mosquitoes in your area? That will kill cats. I called the mosquito abatement district and they shut the truck off at my house. I still take precautions and cover a couple plants when they come by so that I have a couple clean plants until the pesticide breaks down on the remainder of my garden. My cats had the same symptoms....lack of eating and then they shriveled up. They oozed something, too.

I'm not sure what else could be going on. I hope you find your answer.

[terrifly]

No spraying around my area...they dont do that in our neighborhood. Still trying to think of what it might be...Just lost 2 more
I am so sad.... The bigger ones are so far fine...knock on wood....
Terri

[Mona Miller]

This happened to me this spring. It is very sad. I have a new batch of 9 eggs. So far, one has turned dark and hasn't hatched.

I have a theory that with our warm winter all those diseases that attack Monarchs did not die back.

[terrifly]

I lost more today and am down to 7 from the orginal 16-18. I got these caterpillars from Monarch Watch does that make any difference? I did have one loss in the shipment and then one loss later in the day and then they just kept going after that and for some reason its was all the smallest cats that got sick first all in the same way. I noticed that there were alot of small ones in the shipment compared to last years shipments.
They seem to not eat as much and start not moving right and seemed to have back end problems. Then they start the twisting motion. I have one upstairs right now who is trying to survive and trying to eat but when he moves his back end doesnt want to move with him....Sometimes he moves his head back and forth. Its so sad..I know he will not survive

They are all eating the same milkweeds. So I dont know what is happenening unless I start loosing the larger 3rd instars.

[Mona Miller]

Please contact Monarch Watch and let them know. There are so many things that can go right and so many things that can go wrong.

My first eggs that I collected from the wild had problems. I was just explaining to someone that I thought it was poison, but can't get my county forestry person to own up to spraying any thing. I don't spray. Green liquid coming out and some oozing green jell like stuff from their butts like their insides were coming out. It was heart breaking to watch them. I separated, cared for them, some made it , but some didn't. Also, about 1/3 of the eggs did not hatch. They turned black, but nothing came out.

[terrifly]

OK Mona...I will Contact them.
I had my first beautiful female visitor today and she left eggs on every milkweed plant. I guess she knew I was feeling sad about loosing my babies
Terri

[Mona Miller]

Make sure you bleach and rinse thoroughly any of those containers that you used to raise the sick Monarchs before you use with the new group. But, I'm sure you know that.

Another friend had problems when he placed his caterpillars too close to an air conditioner.

Are you on the Monarch Teacher Network Facebook page? There are lots of people on there from NJ and they often share eggs, caterpillars, etc.
http://www.facebook.com/groups/118887338162728/

[terrifly]

Thanks for your help. I actually was so upset I just threw all the containers out and bought new ones at the dollar store. And I have the air vent in that room totally blocked off....What temp is ok for them to be in inside, do you know?

Thanks
Terri

[Mona Miller]

My house is 77-80 and my Monarchs usually do fine. Lower temps would just slow the process down. My friend found that it was the location of a room air conditioner that was killing his cats. They were way to close to it.

I've read that even at temps of 85 they are okay if they are not in direct sun.

[terrifly]

Mona, Is there any reason that my milkweed would make the young 1st and 2nd instars sick and die and none of the other ones ?
Terri

[Mona Miller]

What species of milkweed? Did you buy it from a nursery? On the dplex email list we have been talking about systemic pesticides that are used by nurseries. They last a very long time on plants and can't be washed off.

[terrifly]

I have 5 different swamp milkweed plants that have been planted in the ground for 2 years now ..they did come from a nursery. At least 4 of them camer from a nursery I know that does not use pesticides but I dont know about the other 2. I have common milkweed I planted from seeds and tropical I have from root cuttings.

[Mona Miller]

In one year any pesticides should be gone. Perhaps it is not the milkweed. I would advise you to let Monarch Watch know that you had problems.

[califspaw]

I am in S.CA and three of my cats got sick they stopped eating, got loose fras, threw up and towards the end doubled over like they were trying to throw up, they also shriveled up a bit. Two of them also pooped out a clear green jelly kind of substance. I grew my initial plant from seeds and the one they were eating from was a container plant I grew from seeds I got from the original. I don't spray my plants and neither does the city. When the first one got sick I wasn't sure what was happening, so I posted it on here I believe someone said it could be black death. But mine never turned black. But when I heard that I took all my cats off the plant and seperated them into different containers. After the first one died, two more died. I have eight that survived, and are all in chrysalis. I also stopped feeding them from the potted plant and gave them from my milkweeds I have in the ground.

[Mona Miller]

Some times I wonder if something is in the potting soil.

I know the heat is not good for caterpillars and it stresses our milkweeds and makes them more toxic.

[califspaw]

The potted plant was miracle grow potting soil and it was a black container which I had growing in the back yard with full sun most of the time. I have another in the back yard but it is in a clay pot which I believe keeps the soil cooler and they ate from this one as well after I got rid of the one I felt could have been bad.

[Mona Miller]

I remember someone in CA having trouble with miracle grow fertilizer. I use Sta-Green Potting soil.

[terrifly]

Hi Mona....
I just lost one of my larger cats today. He either just shed his skin or was getting ready too. I found him/her like this...its color much darker than it was before.
Any idea what this might be from?
I hope its nothing I am doing or my milkweed. Now I am also concerened about the biggest cat is very sluggish...It just shed its skin a day ago and is not very active.

It seems that all the cats are getting sick right after one of sheddings. And dont eat after and get sick.I attached pics of the one today.
Terri

[Mona Miller]

I really don't know.

I have been concerned with our drought and heat causing the milkweed to be stressed and maybe more toxic.

Be very careful with transferring any of this to your new stock that you found naturally.

Wash hands before handling.

Did I ask whether you had any pets? Some times people use Frontline (ticks and fleas medicine for dogs and cats) and that is the beast to wash off your hands. That will kill your caterpillars big time.

[terrifly]

Every time one of caterpillars die I just get some new milkweed because I just dont know what is causing it. I mean the smaller one were eating swamp milkweed and the bigger ones were eating the common...so I just dont know.
Now I am down to 5 from the rearing kit.

I do have a dog but I have not applied the frontline on her since the last dose which was June 10th.

I just dont know.....Chip Taylor did email me back about my problem but does not know what could be casuing it. He said they have not had any real problems other than possibly from the heat.
I did send the pictures of the one caterpillar to him today.
Terri

[Mona Miller]

Frontline usually last a month? I've heard people tell me that they even washed their hands and still had problems with their caterpillars. Frontline is deadly for caterpillars.

How was the delivery? Was the box left in the mail box or at the door for too long? Heat can do a number on caterpillars. I once ordered some black swallowtail eggs, they were shipped USPS and the mail man left them in my mail box. They fried.

[terrifly]

I had told Chip that when I got my shipment the cold pack inside was very warm. I met the ups man outside and brought them right in. He knows that I raise Monarchs and knew what was inside so he knows that I will be there for them.
The outside of the package seemed fine but they always seem to have the shipping label on the one side and when you open the box everything is upside down. It was like that last year too.

Frontline does last a month or more...I usually wear gloves when I put that on out dog but I cant say for positive that any residue did not get on my finger somewhere.
I honestly do not think it is that.

[Mona Miller]

If you pet your dog even after you put the Frontline on, you will get it on your hands for the next month.

If you order caterpillars from Monarch Watch in the future, I'd opt for the shipment to remain at the UPS facility if possible. I don't know how far away you would have to drive. That would keep the package from sitting in that hot, brown UPS truck.

My UPS facility is about 15 minutes away. I know that would be a lot more trouble.

This heat we are having is not normal.

I'm just trying to figure out what happened. Not blaming you at all.

[califspaw]

Oh my gosh I found my cats. On the 17th of June and I had applied some frontline on my dogs on the 13th, I did get a bit on my fingertips, which I immediately washed. I will have someone else apply next time as I am the one who handles the cats and takes care of them. Thanks for the info.

[Mona Miller]

http://www.ehow.com/about_6661919_front ... work_.html
The active ingredients in Frontline are Fipronil and S-Methoprene. Fipronil is a broad use insecticide that disrupts the normal nervous system functioning of pests, and ultimately causes paralysis and death of these insects. S-Methoprene is an insect growth regulator that works in conjunction with Fipronil to stop the flea life cycle.
Frontline's active ingredients collect in the oils of the pet's skin and hair follicles. The medication continues to be released for up to one month from hair follicles onto the skin and coat.
Frontline is non-soluble in water, which makes it effective even after bathing or swimming, Exposure to sunlight does not decrease the effectiveness of Frontline.

[terrifly]

Hey Mona,
This is my update on the remainder cats from my Monarch watch kit. They are all gone but one. The 4 that made it to pupate failed and down the the last one and most likely will do the same. All results end the same way...I am posting a picture...This little guy just fell on to a leaf ...oozed some green and black liquid...same with the others. Tried to pupate and just couldnt do it.
I am very sad.

I have alot of babies right now from eggs from my waystation and I just hope this does not happen to them...
I have alot of santizing to do after this....I am heatbroken

[Mona Miller]

The Frontline, which does not wash off hands easily can do this to the caterpillars. It can affect their growth and molting. It last for a month on your dog. You can get it on your hands when petting your dog.

[terrifly]

Well if it is the frontline..what would cause it to affect these caterpillars and not others like the one I had the middle of June that pupated fine. Also last years 3 sets of caterpillars I raised I did not loose any of them like this and I have always used frontline on our dog?

[Mona Miller]

I have no idea. But, these are some symptoms of Frontline. Failure to grow and molt.

Maybe it is another problem. All you can do is trial and error. What happened, why?

[terrifly]

I will have to see how some of my cats do from my waystation.
Terri

[alletahg]

I've been raising monarchs for just the past few years, but this is the first time I've had problems. Nothing about my method has changed and most of my cats seem to be growing up fine. But, I've had several eggs simply not hatch. I've lost three caterpillars at various stages; one was halfway to forming a chrysalis and simply died. Two others sort of shriveled up died. We had eight cats form a chrysalis a few weeks back and seven emerged and were released. One turned black and I had to dispose of it.

Typically I have an extremely high success rate and maybe lose only one or two cats out of a hundred and fifty. I don't know what is causing a bit of a higher mortality rate this year, but I am being extra careful with sanitation and solitary confinement!

[terrifly]

I have been on extra santizing duty and my hands are show the proof ..ughh. Every time I change a container I santize and then I santize my sissors and my tweezers and on and on and on...
And I have a few in solitary confinment but I make sure they have pleasant living quarters
Terri

[Mona Miller]

I ended up buying an aloe based bacteria soap so its not so rough on my hands.

[terrifly]

Hi Mona ...well I have either another problem or the same problem. My wild cats were doing great ,big and fat and all did their J. And this morning I checked on them and almost all of them fell after or while making the chrysalis. Looked like their skin shed was attached to the button more than the chrysalis was.
They all had the same problems..even in other container....is that a humidity or temp. issue?
Except I wanted to ask about one chrysalis that dropped....broke open oozed black...that was the only one.
Very sad once again....