Can disease spread between chrysalises?

[Mom2RJA]

I lost two caterpillars to some kind of disease. There was a third caterpillar in the same container, all born within a day of each other and from the same location. That one also appeared to be sick. It seemed to shrink for a while and it just looked awful. I isolated it and expected to find it dead every day. Some days it looked a little better and some days it looked sick again. Somehow it survived and turned into a chrysalis yesterday. It took longer than any other caterpillar I've seen (either 15 or 16 days, compared to the usual 12 or 13), and its chrysalis is a little bit smaller than the others, but it looks normal.

I am wondering if it is okay to hang this chrysalis with the others I have (I have tied them all onto a rack). Or is there still a chance that this one is sick? If it is sick, can a disease spread from one chrysalis to others if they are near each other (not touching)?

The disease symptoms were that the caterpillars stopped growing and seemed to deflate. One of them produced some greenish black goo just before it died. The other did not. I also had another caterpillar that produced the goo and died in a different container (different age, egg found in a different location). None of the other caterpillars in that container got sick, and they are just starting to pupate today.

[Mona Miller]

That could be Caterpillar: Pseudomonas Bacteria or Chrysalis: Nuclear Polyhedrosis Virus
http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/butt ... 31715.html

All this information is already on the forum some where, but I know it takes time to search.

http://www.evansonart.com/monarchdisease.html
Great photos and info on diseases.

http://www.mymonarchguide.com/2007/07/d ... spore.html
http://www.learnaboutmonarchs.com/learn ... spore.html

http://www.uga.edu/monarchparasites/whatisOE/index.html
How to tell if butterflies are infected with OE
"An infected pupa may develop dark spots or blotches two or three days before the butterfly emerges. These abnormal dark areas are parasite spores. Spores form on the eyes, antennae, wing veins, but mostly on the abdomen. You can see the spores through the outside layer of the pupa a day or two before pigments that color the butterfly normally darken the pupa. Before a butterfly emerges from the chrysalis, pigments are laid down coloring the scales that cover the butterfly. This normal change in the color of the pupa is symmetrical. The color change of an infected monarch happens earlier and does not create a balanced pattern on the pupa."

[Mom2RJA]

My sick caterpillars didn't look like any of the photos of Black Death or OE. I wonder what it was. Do you think it is possible for a caterpillar to get sick and fully recover? It looked normal at the end and formed a normal although slightly small chrysalis. Do you think I need to keep this chrysalis away from all the others?

[Paul Cherubini]

Do you think it is possible for a caterpillar to get sick and fully recover? It looked normal at the end and formed a normal although slightly small chrysalis. Do you think I need to keep this chrysalis away from all the others?

No you do not have to keep a sick chrysalis away from healthy chrysalis's. You only need to keep sick caterpillars away from other sick caterpillars and keep them away from milkweed plants that sick caterpillars had recently been crawling or feeding on.

[Mona Miller]

What if the sick chrysalis begins to leak? The other chrysalises are living, breathing creatures.

[Paul Cherubini]

What if the sick chrysalis begins to leak? The other chrysalises are living, breathing creatures.

"Leaking" is rare. Chrysalids don't eat. Chrysalids don't exhale bacteria, fungi, protozoans or viruses to my knowledge.

[Mona Miller]

They leak when fly larvae comes out. Recently, two people in the group have had chrysalis with a drop of liquid on the outside. The drop was on the caterpillar before it pupated.

http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/butt ... 31715.html
Both Caterpillar: Pseudomonas Bacteria and Chrysalis: Nuclear Polyhedrosis Virus are contagious.

http://www.kidsbutterfly.org/faq/lifecycle/6
"The chrysalis has spiracles or breathing tubes just like the caterpillars and adults. So, there is air exchange between the developing butterfly and the air outside the chrysalis."

I'll have to assume something here. Germs and viruses are so small that they could easily invade a chrysalis through those spiracles.

I'd say if you have a chrysalis that doesn't look healthy, that the best thing to do is isolate it.

[Mom2RJA]

I will keep it isolated just to be safe. The chrysalis looks fine, but with this caterpillar's history I don't want to take any chances.

Do you think I should also isolate the one with the droplet? The drop is still there, just above the gold line. This drop appeared very shortly before it pupated. I was watching it less than an hour earlier and the drop was not there.

[Mona Miller]

If you have room, I'd isolate them both. I always liked the fact that the doctors office had a sick and well side when my kids were younger. There is something to be said for isolating the sick to keep the well from getting sick.

[Mom2RJA]

This is one of the ones I lost to whatever this disease was. Does this photo give any clues as to what this was? Two died this way (different ages, never housed together). Another caterpillar in with this one died a few days earlier but did not produce the black goo. The shed skin above it is from the third caterpillar in this jar, the one that survived and is now a chrysalis in isolation.

[Mona Miller]

http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/butt ... 31715.html
Why does a Monarch caterpillar or chrysalis turn black?

How much humidity is there in your jars? Key to prevent this disease is keep the humidity down.

[Mom2RJA]

I had read about "black death" but my caterpillars didn't turn black, so I wasn't sure that was it. They produced that black goo, but the cats themselves did not darken. I do try hard to keep the humidity down in my jars. I try to keep it humid enough so the milkweed leaves don't dry out too fast, but dry enough that there is no condensation on the walls.

[Mona Miller]

I think the black comes later, it's the stuff that comes out of the caterpillar at first that looks black. There is so much that we don't know. It's really hard to figure out exactly what is happening. The major problem is the caterpillar dies.

Clean out the frass as offend as possible (some times I've cleaned the larger instars up to 3 times a day). Sterilize containers between broods. Provide as fresh as possible leaves.

[Mom2RJA]

The one that survived in that jar emerged yesterday, a perfect female butterfly! I think this "cat" really had nine lives. There were so many times I thought she was dying. I've never seen a caterpillar look like that and live. And then her survival as a butterfly was incredible too! I had left her hanging from her jar lid where she pupated, just as a precaution to keep her away from all the others. I didn't check on the chrysalises the night before she emerged because I was in bed with a nasty stomach bug, so I didn't know she was about to emerge. When she emerged, she fell into the glass jar, and there was nothing in there for her to climb to be able to hang (since I was sick and not expecting her arrival). My husband (who was home from work taking care of the three of us with the stomach bug) happened to notice her on the floor of the jar and lifted her to safety in time for her wings to expand normally. I am so grateful to him! I don't know how he happened to look at that jar at just the right time.

We named her "Miracle" and released her today in a beautiful garden filled with flowers and milkweed. Here are photos of her on my hand yesterday and having her first meal in the garden today.

[Mona Miller]

Yes, it is a miracle. Each butterfly that makes it to adulthood is. There are so many things that can go wrong. But, when they go right it is so beautiful.

Good work, Saint Mom2RJA!

[Mom2RJA]

It really is a miracle any time they turn out okay! I do think that every time I see one emerge. I just felt that way even more than usual with this one and all her issues!

I remember feeling the same way with each of my pregnancies. There are SO MANY things that can go wrong. Every child is a miracle, as is every butterfly!

[Mona Miller]

Absolutely, and when things do go wrong, but they turn out okay, it is even more of a miracle.