Where are they?

[Mom2RJA]

Where are the monarchs? Three or four weeks ago I couldn't pick leaves to feed my caterpillars without finding another 20 eggs. Now I haven't seen an egg or a caterpillar in over a week. I have been picking milkweed in 7 different locations within about a 10 mile radius. I have looked at hundreds of milkweed plants. Nothing! What's going on? I'm down to eight caterpillars, all within a few days of pupating.

[Mona Miller]

Which state are you in? I'm in Virginia. We had that initial laying in late April and then I've haven't seen much. No eggs here either. I saw a couple of Monarchs at Sky Meadow State Park over the weekend (Delaplane, Virginia).

http://www.dcr.virginia.gov/state_parks/sky.shtml
This is an incredible state park.

[blazing star]

Me, too. I had a ton of eggs early season. Now I'm hard pressed to locate any. I'm in Illinois. I just checked again, today, and located only 4 eggs.

[Mona Miller]

On dplex-L email list serve, they are talking about how fast and far they are going up into Canada. Apparently, there are a lot of them, too.

http://www.monarchwatch.org/dplex/index.htm
Dplex-L is the name of our electronic mailing list and discussion group on the Internet. If you have an internet Email account, you can join in!

Journey North sightings:
http://www.learner.org/jnorth/maps/Gallery.html
There's a drop down list. You can check to see who's seeing Monarchs in your area.

http://www.learner.org/cgi-bin/jnorth/j ... 1338652530
"On a 2 day visit to the beaches on the west side of Lake Winnipeg I saw at least 50 Monarchs. They were seen crossing the highway, nectaring on dandelions on boulevards and close to the beach. The south wind was pushing them northward. Temperatures were up to 22 C/ 72 F."
Gimli, MB, Canada
http://goo.gl/maps/ogc5
Look at how far they are already.

[blazing star]

If they're simply migrating further North quicker, that may not be a bad thing. I've been concerned about my native plants blooming much earlier than prior years and that the monarchs Fall migration may not be met with nectar. Hopefully, they get back South as quickly as they are headed North.

[Mona Miller]

I just sent this info to someone who was leading walks and giving out the wrong information:

http://peabody.research.yale.edu//jls/p ... /1964-18(3)165-Petetersen.pdf
Monarch Butterflies are Eaten by Birds

http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... .full.html
Monarch butterflies cross the Appalachians from the west to recolonize the east coast of North America
Monarchs don't just keep heading north, I participated in this study. I sent him 6 specimens from our area for analysis.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/11 ... ere-to-go/
New Study Reveals That Butterflies Know Exactly Where To Go
"The Monarch butterfly (or Danaus plexippus) is a popular creature worldwide. Perhaps the most recognized and quintessential butterfly, the Monarch can be found as far south as Mexico and as far north as Canada. In fact, each year millions of these creatures begin their migration from Mexico to the great white north, breeding and laying eggs as they go. Most of these butterflies will stay in the southern and central areas of the United States, laying their eggs on milkweed plants. Some aspiring generations of Monarchs will travel all the way to Canada to reproduce.

There's a new study underway by Tyler Flockhart another Canadian scientists. I also sent a few specimens for this research. I can't wait to hear the results.
http://www.butterfliesandmoths.org/site ... vement.pdf
This study has been concluded, but he is currently doing further study in Springfield, Illinois this summer:
http://www.bios.niu.edu/news_events/but ... nteers.pdf

[blazing star]

I can't participate in this as I won't kill adult butterflies for the purpose of their data collection. I just can't do that.

[Mona Miller]

I had a really hard time doing this. I sent only 6. The value of research for me out weighted the killing of a few butterflies for the benefit of the whole group. This data is being used to make recommendations for conservation pathways.

I also sent them milkweed samples. They were collecting isotope samples so that they could match the plant isotopes to the butterfly isotopes so that they could tell where the butterfly originated.

[Mom2RJA]

I'm in Michigan. I looked again today and still nothing. I found some beautiful young, untouched milkweed with no aphids or other insects. But no eggs or caterpillars either. I only have a couple of days left before I'll be out of caterpillars! I hope my butterflies stick around and lay some eggs!

[blazing star]

Mona, You raise so many butterflies that I can see where you can reconcile that you're acting for the greater good. 6 butterflies would comprise a significant percentage of those that I raise. Don't beat yourself up!

Mom2RJA, I was just outside this a.m. and found another egg. I don't know if I missed this, or if it's new. Big difference between beginning of season and now!

[Mona Miller]

The specimens were not raised, they had to be wild caught. Matter-of-fact, one of the females that was very faded, I collected over 100 eggs prior to collecting her. The point was wild collecting to see where the butterfly came from.

I end up giving teachers eggs. That particular butterfly's offspring went on to help teachers learn about rearing butterflies in the classroom.

If you all haven't heard of the Monarch Teacher Network, you may want to check them out. I attended one of their workshops.

http://www.eirc.org/website/programs-se ... r-network/
Main website for Monarch Teacher Network
http://www.eirc.org/website/programs-se ... workshops/
Summer Workshops start on June 13 and run through August 23. They are in many states.

http://www.monarchteacher.ca/
Monarch Teacher Network Canada
http://monarchteacher.eventbrite.com/
Summer Workshops

[Paul Cherubini]

This data is being used to make recommendations for conservation pathways.

Do the monarchs ever fail to find the milkweed that exists in certain areas of the landscape that are located outside the boundaries of a certain flight pathway? No, so are these assumed "pathways" real or imagined?

[Mona Miller]

They are real. They are the same pathways that birds, other butterflies, dragonflies, etc. take. Why fight against the jet stream, go with the flow.

[Paul Cherubini]

They are real. They are the same pathways that birds, other butterflies, dragonflies, etc. take. Why fight against the jet stream, go with the flow.

Jet stream? Not possible. Jet stream = 20,000 feet+ altitude http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_stream
Strange how so many scientific "facts" in science are actually fantasies; e.g. "monarch pathways" "monarchs hitch rides on the jet stream", "monarchs are carried to England by hurricanes", "continental divide separates the monarchs into two non-interbreeding populations", "releasing diseased monarchs can cause a disease epidemic in the wild populations" and dozens of others.

[Mona Miller]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_stream
There's more to the jet stream than the wind at 20,000 ft.

Monarchs have been seen at over 13,000 ft.

Hey Paul do you believe in Karma. What goes around comes around?

[blazing star]

Paul, if you read your own link you would see that the "strongest" jet streams are at 20,000 ft + altitude.

[Paul Cherubini]

Paul, if you read your own link you would see that the "strongest" jet streams are at 20,000 ft + altitude.

ttp://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/sseop/EFS/printi ... 039-601-49
"The Jet Stream is a narrow zone of high-speed winds typically found at altitudes of 4 to 8 miles (8-12 km) above the earth"

4-8 miles = 21,120 - 42,240 feet = way to cold for monarchs to fly

[Mona Miller]

http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/Altitu ... isons.html
Perspective. Some birds migrate as high as 29,000 ft. Wouldn't they freeze to death according to what you are saying.

[Paul Cherubini]

http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/AltitudeComparisons.html
Perspective. Some birds migrate as high as 29,000 ft. Wouldn't they freeze to death according to what you are saying.

Birds fly in Alaska on cloudy days during the winter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjYq20aR3zM
Monarchs are cold blooded and cannot.

[Mona Miller]

Really, November 3, Hawk Mountain, PA. Temp in the parking area was 38. Monarch seen flying over the mountain while we were hawk watching.

[Paul Cherubini]

Really, November 3, Hawk Mountain, PA. Temp in the parking area was 38. Monarch seen flying over the mountain while we were hawk watching.

At 21,000 feet it would be about 30 degrees (too cold for monarchs to fly even on a sunny day) on a 97 degree hot summer day. (temp drops 3.2 degrees per 1000 feet)

In September and May when monarchs are actively migrating, the usual surface temp is more like 70-85 degrees so the usual temp at 21,000 feet in Sept and May would be 3-18 degrees = lethally cold for monarchs, hence the reason glider pilot and monarch migration strategies expert Prof. David Gibo once said monarchs do not ride jet stream winds because they are "too cold."

[Mona Miller]

The jet stream isn't all at 21,000 ft.

http://www.ncnatural.com/NCNatural/wild ... grate.html
"Basically there are two types of air currents that migrants use to speed themselves along their way--Thermal currents and deflective currents. Thermal currents are columns of rising air that are produced on calm, sunny days where the sun heats the air faster than in surrounding areas. Heated air rises into the atmoshere, eventually cooling and losing its ability to hold water vapor and forming cumulus clouds. The upward movement of the air is strong enough to lift all kinds of things-- like water vapor, dust and leaves, or hawks (with a little help from the hawk itself). The other type of air current is a deflective current and is the product of wind flowing up and over an obstruction, like water over a boulder in a creek. Because thermal currents are dependant on solar heating on calm days, they are more likely to occur in late spring, summer and early fall. As the days shorten, the potential for thermal production tapers off in the fall. As low pressure centers begin to roll out of Canada into the US dragging cold fronts behind, the deflective currents become the more predominant sort. In the Appalachians, a cold fronts' passage will usually bring clearing skies and winds from the north or northwest that will strike the mountains and the wind will be forced up and over. Since the ridge of the appalachians runs from the northeast to a southwest direction, there is also a tendency for the air to have a southerly motion to it as well that migrants use to their advantage.

Monarch Butterfly Migration
Another even more unusual migration occurs in September and October as well-the Monarch Butterfly migration. Monarchs also use the deflective wind currents to help them make their long journey to Michoacãn state in Mexico. What is so unusual is that none of the Monarchs have ever been to Mexico, yet they will end up in the same valleys, perhaps even the same trees and branches, that their ancestors rested in. The information is encoded somehow in their DNA."

[Paul Cherubini]

The jet stream isn't all at 21,000 ft.
http://www.ncnatural.com/NCNatural/wild ... grate.html

"Jet Stream" is not mentioned in that article. Nor does the article say anything about jet stream altitudes. You previously wrote: "Why fight against the jet stream, go with the flow" but have not provided evidence that monarchs are ever (or could ever) be found at jet stream altitudes (20,000+ feet) where daytime temps in late spring and late summer are typically in the 0 - 30 degree F range.

[Mona Miller]

The jet stream is not all at 20,000 ft. Go back and look at the website that I posted. At certain times, it can be as low as 2-3,000 ft.

[Paul Cherubini]

The jet stream is not all at 20,000 ft. Go back and look at the website that I posted. At certain times, it can be as low as 2-3,000 ft.

"Jet stream" is not mentioned anywhere in this article. http://www.ncnatural.com/NCNatural/wild ... grate.html
Nor is "2-3000 feet"

[Mona Miller]

This website that I had posted above, which you seemed to ignore and keep up with your ranting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_stream
Low-level jets also are typical of various regions such as the central United States.

Low level jets

There are wind maxima at lower levels of the atmosphere that are also referred to as jets.
Barrier jet
A barrier jet in the low levels forms just upstream of mountain chains, with the mountains forcing the jet to be oriented parallel to the mountains. The mountain barrier increases the strength of the low level wind by 45 percent.[53] In the North American Great Plains a southerly low-level jet helps fuel overnight thunderstorm activity during the warm season, normally in the form of mesoscale convective systems which form during the overnight hours.[54] A similar phenomenon develops across Australia, which pulls moisture poleward from the Coral Sea towards cut-off lows which form mainly across southwestern portions of the continent.[55]
Valley exit jet
A valley exit jet is a strong, down-valley, elevated air current that emerges above the intersection of the valley and its adjacent plain. These winds frequently reach a maximum of 20 m/s (45 mph) at a height of 40-200m above the ground. Surface winds below the jet may sway vegetation but are significantly weaker.
They are likely to be found in valley regions that exhibit diurnal mountain wind systems, such as those of the dry mountain ranges of the US. Deep valleys that terminate abruptly at a plain are more impacted by these factors than are those that gradually become shallower as downvalley distance increases.[56]

[Paul Cherubini]

Low-level jets also are typical of various regions such as the central United States. In the North American Great Plains a southerly low-level jet helps fuel overnight thunderstorm activity during the warm season, normally in the form of mesoscale convective systems which form during the overnight hours.

Here is where the Great Plains are located: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_o ... Plains.png Here is the Journey North Spring migration map that shows most monarch are sighted east of that area: http://www.learner.org/jnorth/maps/mona ... g2012.html

So I think those facts do not support your earlier position that: This [isotope study] data is being used to make recommendations for conservation pathways that are largely jet stream determined. Instead I think the facts support my contention that there are no "pathways' to begin with because the spring migrants fan across the entire map, including the huge area east of the Great Plains to the Atlantic coast where there is no reliable or predominant "southerly low level jet".

[Mona Miller]

Fall migration, not spring migration The spring migrants fly low.

You must thrive on controversy.

[Paul Cherubini]

Fall migration, not spring migration The spring migrants fly low.
You must thrive on controversy.

There are no low level jets in the USA in the fall that blow from the north. There are only brief periods when winds blow from the north both at the surface and aloft for a day or two following the passage of cold fronts (and some seasons like last season there aren't many cold fronts in the central USA in Sept-early Oct). The monarchs soar on those, mainly only 50-500 feet above the ground according to radar imaging and glider pilot (e.g. David Gibo) reports.

[Mona Miller]

Apparently, you don't read very thoroughly.

viewtopic.php?f=6&p=14826#p14816

[Paul Cherubini]

Apparently, you don't read very thoroughly.
viewtopic.php?f=6&p=14826#p14816

There's no information there that indicates there are either low or high altitude jet stream winds from the north in Sept and Oct in the USA. I have two videos taken in western Oklahoma last Sept showing that during northerly SURFACE wind conditions, some of the monarchs are nectaring during the day and others soaring at roughly 50-500 feet above the ground:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTnVIlbbNI4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfN4gkCieWU

Also a video from western Oklahoma showing that during westerly wind conditions, the migrants allowed themselves to be drifted east:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1J1_GEtFx4

[Mona Miller]

It is common knowledge that Monarchs need a good N to NE wind to travel on. If a fast southern wind is blowing, they may get stranded. They usually find stops that provide nectar and shelter. They must continue nectaring during their journey to maintain and gain weight so that they can winter over.

http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/monarc ... ronts.html
"It is counter intuitive, but the times when we get the most spectacular reports to the Texas Monarch Watch Hotline is when the winds are blowing fairly strong from the south. Winds with a strong southerly component cause the monarchs to behave differently. They spend this time looking for nectar to refuel. This means that they are searching and accumulating in low (riparian) areas near rivers and streams where most nectar is found in Texas during the fall. In these low areas they are out of the wind which might damage their wings and in the flowers where they can feed. Sometime they accumulated by the tens of thousands and dazzle those who are lucky enough to stumble across them."

[Mona Miller]

Apparently, you don't read very thoroughly.
http://monarchwatch.org/forums/viewtopi ... 826#p14816

There's no information there that indicates there are either low or high altitude jet stream winds from the north in Sept and Oct in the USA. I have two videos taken in western Oklahoma last Sept showing that during northerly SURFACE wind conditions, some of the monarchs are nectaring during the day and others soaring at roughly 50-500 feet above the ground:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTnVIlbbNI4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfN4gkCieWU

Also a video from western Oklahoma showing that during westerly wind conditions, the migrants allowed themselves to be drifted east:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1J1_GEtFx4

I asked my daughter who has a Masters in Meteorology and is a doctoral candidate in Environmental Engineering, with a medium sized house, normal weight, and drives a Prius:

Mona [Mom] Question:
I have a question about the jet stream. How does it affect low level winds? And, are all parts of the jet stream at 20,000+ ft.

Jennie [Daughter] Answer:
Any where the temperature gradient is tight (large changes in temperature over small area) the winds are going to be fast at all levels. Upper level jet they usually say is at 300 to 250 mb, but there are no hard boundaries, that is just where we typically look for it.
Yes, there are jets at low levels too.
Think of air like a fluid moving from hot to cold (tropics to poles) and getting changed around by the earth's rotation and topography.
Here is Jan 2012 to early Jun 2012, 250 mb wind speed:
http://tinyurl.com/7ah2l4h
So beautiful! Love, Jennie

[Mom2RJA]

I released some butterflies today at a cohousing development that is absolutely perfect monarch habitat (all the yards are native flowers including lots of milkweed). I looked around and finally found one large cat on some butterfly milkweed (the first time I've seen one on anything other than common milkweed) and one egg. I must have looked at 50 plants to find those. Then tonight I went to my usual field and searched all the milkweed. Nothing. I'm so glad I found the one cat and egg today. I hadn't found anything since 5/28 (one cat that has already pupated). I hope the butterflies I have released in my yard will find the field across the street and start laying!

[Mona Miller]

I had a fly by today, but the Monarch didn't stay. I thought maybe it was a male and he was setting up territory. But, it didn't stayed. My common and swamp milkweed are starting to bloom.

Isn't it nice to get back on topic.

[Mom2RJA]

I released three females and a male at the wonderful cohousing butterfly habitat this morning. I'm really hoping they will all stick around there and I'll find some of their eggs next time I go there! I'm encouraging the cohousing development to register as a monarch waystation. They really have the ideal place for them.

How long does it take for monarchs to mate and lay eggs from the time they emerge?

[Mona Miller]

Mating usually occurs from three to five days, but a mature male will mate with an immature female right away if he has access to her.

[Paul Cherubini]

I released three females and a male at the wonderful cohousing butterfly habitat this morning. I'm really hoping they will all stick around
How long does it take for monarchs to mate and lay eggs from the time they emerge?

Not likely to stick around. But other monarchs from the general area may visit the cohousing habitat briefly from time to time. Newly emerged female monarchs won't lay eggs for at least 4-5 days and it could take 4-5 days before the newly emerged males are interested in mating. Older wild males in the area will generally not be nterested in newly emerged females. So even if an older male in the area locates a newly emerged female, he may largely ignore her until she is at least a day old.

[Mona Miller]

I've actually witnessed a newly hatched female getting mated by a resident male in the wild in my yard--my yard is pretty wild. I've also marked and released gravid females into an area with nectar and host plants and they ended up staying in that area for several days. This was monitor by the teacher who created the habitat. I marked them with a sharpie. I put a big MM (Mona's Monarchs) on their back under wing.

Perhaps the Western Monarchs behave differently than the Eastern Monarchs?

[Mom2RJA]

I still can't find anything! Butterflies emerged from my last two chrysalises today and I am left with just one caterpillar (the only egg I have found in almost a month). I keep looking at milkweed in a variety of locations. The milkweed is beautiful but there is just no sign of any monarchs! I have personally raised and released 47 of them in the last month. Where are they going and why aren't they laying any eggs around here?

[Mona Miller]

Well, here in my area we almost broke a record for high temp. It was 98 yesterday. Tomorrow, it is supposed to be over 100. These are not good temps for Monarchs.

What's the weather in your area?

[dani]

Same story in south-central Wisconsin. I too was wondering about the heat. We've been having quite a drought during the past couple of months, and it's been really hot and dry.

[Mom2RJA]

It is hot here too, in the low 90s. And we have had very little rain (but we've had a couple of good rains in the last week). But the milkweed is thriving! And there are good nectar flowers blooming everywhere (including lots of milkweed in bloom). Today I went to a place with a wonderful supply of milkweed among many other flowers. I released 4 butterflies there a couple of weeks ago (3 female, 1 male) and I released one female today. I must have checked 100 milkweed plants. Nothing.

[blazing star]

We took a vacation up to Madison and hiked portions of the Ice Age Trail. The Milkweed was eerily in tact. Barely any munching. We only saw a few monarchs on our hikes.

In my yard, I've barely seen any monarchs this year. Last year there was a monarch in my yard daily.

We, too, are now in drought. Very little chance of rain over the next 10 days. Mona said that monarchs need water. How is this water imbibed? I've yet to see a monarch on wet soil, like I do other type of butterflies.

What can we, that are in the drought areas, implement in our yards to provide better habitat concerning moisture, etc?

[Mona Miller]

All creatures need water. I've seen a few puddle and when I mist the cages they use their proboscis to take in the water. Nectar is part water.

Denise Gibbs posted this to our local Virginia bugs list. She attend the MN Monarch Conference.

"After talking with many folks from around the eastern US at the Monarch Meeting in MN this past week, I learned that butterflies have been scarce recently in most areas. Lincoln Brower told me his butterfly garden in the mountains of Virginia has seen very little activity, which is surprising since it is the best garden ever. On a NABA count near Chanhassen MN with Jeff Glassburg and other excellent leaders, we found only 20 species of butterflies. However, there were some good species-- bronze coppers are abundant here and it was nice to see the dark form of the common wood nymph. Yesterday, in the Nature Conservancy's Bluestem Prairie Preserve near Fargo, ND, butterflies were more abundant, and I was lucky enough to see a Dakota skipper. But the best sightings were the monarchs-- lots and lots of them, Showy milkweed, common milkweed and swamp milkweed are abundant and in peak bloom. The swamp milkweed plants were loaded with chubby last instar monarch caterpillars. This fall's monarch migration down the central flyway should be a good one!
Denise Gibbs"

[blazing star]

So you're trying to make me feel better. Thanks.

Our creek is bone dry to I dumped a bucket of water in it. It absorbed like a sponge and is probably bone dry again.

I filled in my dragonfly pond in my front yard and am using this more like a mini wetland. I'll make sure this soil remains moist.

I'm stressing much about something I can do very little about.

[Mona Miller]

It rained here a few days ago, but with temps reaching over 100 with the heat index the ground is dry and cracking. I'm out early in the morning watering a bit. Also using a nozzle to water plants so as not to waste too much water on a huge area.

[Mona Miller]

I've seen years like this where there are plenty of Monarchs in one area and none in others. I did see a female a couple of days ago, but didn't find any eggs.

"Rainy River is a Canadian town situated on the Ontario-Minnesota border, along the Rainy River opposite Baudette, Minnesota, USA, and southeast of the Lake of the Woods. It is at the western terminus of Ontario Highway 11 (world’s longest street, known in Toronto as Yonge Street). Map of location: http://tinyurl.com/6sq5ood

Birdwatcher Tyler Hoar reports: “Monarchs are fairly common right now in the roadsides and pastures.”

I had hoped that Tyler could comment on the abundance of milkweed, but he noted that was not looking for it.

Hoping to get some reports shortly from northern locations in Ontario and the Prairie Provinces via provincial and national park staff.

Don Davis
Toronto, Ontario, Canada"

[blazing star]

I was wondering that today, in that I'm new to this so this type of non activity may have occurred in the past and I'm just now "aware" of it. Ignorance is bliss, like they say. I'm lucky, in that I am finding scattered eggs and when I came back from Wisconsin, 3 had hatched. A lot of my eggs haven't been viable this year. Another first for me.

[Mona Miller]

I learn some thing new all the time. I call it a learning curve. I've been raising Monarchs since my son was 5 and now he will be 24 soon.