Monarch Watch Forums

by **dje158** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:23 pm

I planted some milkweed 4 years ago in hopes of helping the monarchs. Last year we finally found some cats & successfully released 24 butterflies. I have not yet seen any monarchs this year (seldom do around here - central NY). I am not sure if it is too early here or not. We found the cats last year in mid-August. I was hoping to catch some in the egg stage this year. I went to check out the milkweed yesterday (which has spread like crazy this year). It is COVERED with aphids. I sprayed one plant off with water & it was covered again this morning. I poured over past posts about how to get rid of them. I do not want to use pesticides but did try to baking soda & water mixture, which did not seem to bother the aphids at all (they moved because of the water but did not "jump off" as others reported). Anyway, I also found what seemed like hundreds of milkweed tussock caterpillars, tons of milkweed bugs (need to do research on these) & another type of caterpillar (have not had time to look that one up) completely devouring one plant. Since I read on here that the Monarchs will not lay on aphid ridden milkweed, should I just cut it all down & call it a loss this year? Or just let them go at it & see what happens? I did find a few ladybugs but the aphids are so bad that the ladybugs themselves were covered with the aphids. It grosses me out!! I have probably 40-50 plants but all in one small area & all are infested. The backs of every leaf are completely covered.

Also How do you manage the Milkweed Tussock & any other caterpillars (besides Monarchs of course!!)that attack your milkweed?

Thank you for any suggestions/advice.

by **Mona Miller** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:47 am

Take a gallon milk jug, cut out about a 3 to 4 inch circle below the cap, but not the handle side. Put in some soapy water. Knock the milkweed tussock moth cats into the soapy water.

Yes, cut back the milkweed. That will help. I think washing them off just sends them down to the ground where the ants pick them back up and take them back up. Ants farm them for the honey dew.

The milkweed will regrow for the monarchs in the fall. Leave at least 3-4 foot stems. Don't cut it all the way to the ground.

by **dje158** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:36 pm

Thank you, Mona (for answering & all of the great info I have gotten from you via other posts)! Is there anything to plant or use to deter the Milkweed Tussocks in the future?

Debbie

by **Mona Miller** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:42 pm

Unfortunately, milkweed is their host, too. The only thing that I can suggest is that you drown them in a bucket of water. It is easy to put the bucket under the milkweed and when you shake they will fall. They are a pest on the milkweed.

If you allow them to stay, they will defoliate the milkweed.

by **Paul Cherubini** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:57 pm

by **Mona Miller** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:08 pm

Sure, the butterflies, other insects, and animals are telling her that they aren't affected. #-o

We know what your agenda is--push the pesticides and herbicides (products that you sell). [-X

by **Monarch MaMa** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:56 pm

I've found monarch eggs on milkweeds with aphids & ants on them. I think once the caterpillar hatches the ants will kill it. However last year I found a 3rd/4th instar on a heavily infected common milkweed. It probably grew on an adjacent ant-aphid free plant and crawled over. At that point it was too large for those ants to bother. These ants were medium size.

I would leave the tussock moths. They will possibly feed birds & other creatures. Yes, a large group of them will devour a plant but this year it seems the predators are eating tussuck moths readily. You could move the tussock moths to a different group of plants, but its my view that all these creatures need habitat, not just monarchs.

My favorite pesticide is soapy water. I would find a soap foam dispensor and soak the aphids in soap foam. It will suffocate them without chemicals. The soap will not harm the plant. Just check it over carefully for caterpillars before applying the foam. I had a problem with beetles eating our asparagus earlier. I would take a long rectangular container with soap foam in water & drop the beetles in it along with the freshly cut asparagus. I wonder if you could gently tip a milkweed into a container with soap foam for a minute, holding it, to drown the aphids. Younger milkweeds are kinda flexible.

That butterfly farm owner also stated that they thoroughly rinse off the malathion before using the leaves as food. That part was omitted from the other post.

by **Mona Miller** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:36 pm

1. It depends on which Malathion they used. There are several on the market. Some of these have products that prevent it from being washed off right away.

2. I would imagine that if you rinse the plants, that you can't get every single inch clean unless you dunked them into a tub (the tub water would have the pesticide). Then, what about the pesticide that went into the soil of the plant.

3. According to label directions. You are not supposed to be using Malathion in that manner. It is not supposed to be sprayed on and rinsed off. Label directions should be followed, that is the law.

4. What happens to the Malathion that has been rinsed off. It is on the ground and any storms will wash it into the aquifers, which will harm other wildlife.

5. We are told by the manufacturer that it is okay. But, very mild Malathion will kill ladybugs two weeks after it has been sprayed.

by **Mona Miller** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:12 pm

Paul Cherubini wrote:

Questions for Edith Smith on the Use of Malathion on Milkweed to kill Aphids (I need clarification of a few things):
1. How long have your Monarchs been tested by Mississippi State (MS)?
2. Exactly what diseases are MS tested/testing for you?
3. Have your Monarchs been tested for Malathion levels by MS or any other organization?
4. Has your ground (well) water been tested for Malathion contamination?
5. I am also wondering, if the continued use of Malathion on plants eaten by your Monarchs could cause some type of genetic defect.
6. Has MS tested or given information or have you inquired about whether you use of Malathion could cause genetic or health problems with the Monarchs that you are raising?
7. Which type of Malathion are you using?
8. Are you following the Malathion label directions when you spray and then wash it off?

by **Paul Cherubini** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:06 pm

Mona Miller wrote: 4. What happens to the Malathion that has been rinsed off. It is on the ground and any storms will wash it into the aquifers, which will harm other wildlife..

by **Mona Miller** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:15 pm

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=14779

Edith is on the Monarch Watch Forum. She can answer her own questions. Will she answer these questions or not?

You answer her questions. #-o

But, we know what your agenda is don't we. [-X

by **Mona Miller** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:43 pm

http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 64,00.html
Study: A Link Between Pesticides and ADHD

http://psych.umb.edu/faculty/adams/fall ... icides.htm
Organophosphate Pesticides in Food - A Primer on Reassessment of Residue Limits
"ENVIRONMENTAL EFFECTS OF ORGANOPHOSPHATES
Organophosphates could cause contamination of water and injury to plants or animals that were not the targets of the pesticide application. For example, honey bees can be killed by pesticide applications, as can insects that are being used to help control pests. Animals living near an area where pesticides are used can be affected, too.
EPA looks at the potential for contamination of water through runoff or seepage into groundwater, as well as the effects on other plants and animals when registering or reviewing pesticides. Problems in these areas might be addressed by restrictions on where and how a pesticide is applied."

There is a list of organophosphate pesticides at the bottom of the EPA website. Malathion is on the list.

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/ex ... n-ext.html
"ENVIRONMENTAL FATE
Degradation in soil is rapid and related to the degree of soil binding. Breakdown occurs by a combination of biological and non- biological reaction with water. The average half-life for the compound is six days (15). In raw river water, the half-life is less than one week, whereas malathion remained stable in distilled water for three weeks. Applied at 1 to 6 pounds/acre in log ponds for mosquito control, it was effective for 2.5 to 6 weeks. In sterile seawater, the degradation increases with increased salinity. The breakdown products in water are mono- and di-carboxylic acids.

A field of kale was sprayed at 2.5 pounds per acre. After two days, 18 ppm of the compound and its breakdown products were present. After 15 days, only 1.2 ppm remained. If released to the atmosphere, malathion will break down rapidly in sunlight. The half-life in air is about 1.5 days (15). Malathion has been found in small concentrations in several wells in California.

Residues were found mainly associated with areas of high lipid content in the plant. Increased moisture content increased degradation. The FDA Market Basket Survey (1965-1969) showed an average malathion concentration in representative foods of 0.00013 ppm (5). The tolerance on most food crops is 8 ppm.

Because of its very short half-life, malathion is not expected to bioconcentrate in aquatic organisms (15). However, the brown shrimp showed an average concentration of 869 and 959 times the ambient water concentration in two separate samples."

by **alletahg** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:59 pm

What about insecticidal soap? I have some but haven't used it on the milkweed. One of my plants has a lot of aphids; if I spray them with the insecticidal soap, will it harm any monarch eggs that are laid on that plant? The label isn't much help. It just says to fully cover insects with the soap in order to kill them.

by **Mona Miller** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:55 pm

The soap will kill caterpillars. The best thing to do if it is covered is to cut it back a bit. If it is in a pot, some people take the whole pot and put it into water to drown the aphids.

So far, I have only had to cut back a little of my milkweed, but I cut it back anyway to produce tender growth for fall Monarchs. I am also squishing the aphids. I figure when you wash them off, the ants carry them back up. Ants farm aphids for their honeydew. Ants also protect aphids.

by **Paul Cherubini** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:09 pm

alletahg wrote:What about insecticidal soap? I have some but haven't used it on the milkweed. One of my plants has a lot of aphids; if I spray them with the insecticidal soap, will it harm any monarch eggs that are laid on that plant? The label isn't much help. It just says to fully cover insects with the soap in order to kill them.

No, it won't hurt any eggs laid AFTER you spray insecticidal soap if you rinse the plants off with fresh water from a garden hose about 10 minutes after spraying.

Malathion is favored by some big monarch breeders over insecticidal soap type products for three main reasons:

1. Malathion kills the aphids much more thoroughly for much longer lasting control.

2. If the Malathion treated plants are rinsed off with fresh water 10 minutes after spraying there won't be hardly any malathion residue left on the milkweed leaves that could harm monarch eggs or caterpillars. To be extra sure there are no harmful residues, wait a few days before offering the treated plants to your small monarch caterpillars if you have any.

3. The dilution of Malathion used to control aphids ( 2 teaspoons per gallon of water) is not real dangerous to people or pets so if you accidentally get a small amount on your skin or even in your eyes or mouth you won't notice hardly any irritation (because the actual use dilution contains approx. 99.9% water)

So I suggest you try your insecticidal soap but if it doesn't provide adequate control, then pick up a bottle of Ortho Malathion Plus at Home Depot type stores (the brand doesn't have to be Ortho, however, just any brand that says it contain approx. 50% Malathion).

by **Mona Miller** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:25 pm

Some of those so-called safer, organic products, contain other products. I would not recommend spraying any thing and washing it off. Paul should know better. :roll:

That's not what the label directions tell you to do. For example, some contain Pyrethrum, sure they are organic, but try to wash them off. It could take months to get them off your plants. :shock:

Also, some contain Neem. I'm standing in front of the pesticide isle and reading those labels. #-o

I had such a bad problem last year with aphids. :frown:

This year, I'm trimming tops, squishing, and trying to make sure I watch those aphids. :twisted:

They multiply very fast.

Keep it organic, keep caterpillars, butterflies, and people healthy. :cheesy:

by **Paul Cherubini** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:50 am

Mona Miller wrote: I had such a bad problem last year with aphids. This year, I'm trimming tops, squishing, and trying to make sure I watch those aphids. They multiply very fast.

The advanced commercial monarch breeding courses like this one by Nigel Venters recommend Malathion
http://www.butterflyboutique.net/store. ... erfl-29578

by **Mona Miller** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:15 am

Most of us are not commercial breeders. This was a discussion that we had on dplex-L email list:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Denise Gibbs [Naturalist at Black Hill Regional Park in Maryland]]

Hi Edith,

Since you said that you welcome the sharing of opinions, here is mine. I have to say I am just mortified by several of your statements regarding the use of malathion. First, my background and training is in horticulture and I spent many years working for commercial greenhouses, so I am familiar with malathion and its use. Then for 25 years, I operated my own profitable organic native plant nursery (no pesticide use at all). The internet is loaded with medical studies done on effects of long-term use of malathion on human health, and even some on the health of wildlife. Please read them. They are disturbing.

And, this is based on qualitative, not quantitative data-- but during my 15 years of studying the fall monarch migration on Chincoteague and Assateague Islands, Virginia, I have observed the twice weekly spraying of malathion from a pick-up truck on every street in town, and from small aircraft over wooded areas to control mosquitoes. Chincoteague residents have butterfly gardens with no butterflies. I know this because I check them daily during September and October. Chincoteague residents also have a high incidence of lung cancer; when I researched it, it is one in five people). It really makes me wonder if it is a result of the long-term malathion spraying. I hope you are taking precautions for your personal safety in your greenhouses.

Would you please elaborate on a few points?

You said: "To NOT use Malathion and allow aphids to run rampant in the greenhouses would cause disease issues in the long run."
Please explain what diseases aphids cause.

I assume you are selling butterflies? If so, do you keep the monarch adults long enough so that the chemical is no longer present in their bodies upon sale or release?

You said: "experience has taught us that we are doing the responsible thing."
I believe you may be doing the convenient thing, but it would take a lot to convince me you are doing the responsible thing.

Finally, you said:
Sadly, too few people know enough about milkweed and Monarchs. They prefer to purchase perfect plants, without holes and ‘worms’, to plant in their yards.
Let the education begin. Everyone who cares about this issue-- please inform your local nurseries that you prefer to purchase milkweed that has not been sprayed with pesticides.

Thanks in advance for your response.
Denise Gibbs [Naturalist at Black Hill Regional Park in Maryland]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 7/24/2011 7:27 AM, Shady Oak Butterfly Farm wrote:
We’ve used Malathion for 10 years, feeding it to Monarch larvae, and never had any harmed by spraying, rinsing, and feeding later. Spraying directly on young larvae will kill them, yes! But spraying, rinsing, and feeding it to them later – no. Sorry but 10 years of our personal experience speaks loudly to us. Considering we raise thousands of Monarchs a week, sometimes over 4,000 a week, I can confidently say that we know what we’re doing.

Our butterflies ARE talking and telling the truth, as they are healthy and do wonderful on these Malathion treated plants.

To allow butterflies in our greenhouses is not wise. These thousands of milkweed plants are used to feed larvae growing in the lab. Rather than have Monarchs laying on these plants, we’d rather have total control over our breeding stock. Our larvae in the lab need to eat milkweed that a butterfly has never touched.

Sadly, too few people know enough about milkweed and Monarchs. They prefer to purchase perfect plants, without holes and ‘worms’, to plant in their yards.

We use beneficial insects, shipped in every two weeks, to control everything but aphids. Aphids are simply too good at reproduction for beneficial insects to keep under control. We spend thousands of dollars on beneficial insects every year. Believe me, we’d not use Malathion, which kills beneficial insects, if there was another option.

We send our larvae to Mississippi State every month for screening. This keeps us ahead of any disease that may enter our breeding stock.

To NOT use Malathion and allow aphids to run rampant in the greenhouses would cause disease issues in the long run. To quote Dr. Norm Leppla, “The health of your insects depends greatly upon the health of their food”. We only use Malathion on milkweed, not the other host and nectar plants that we grow.

Yes, we’ve tried beneficial insects and insecticidal soap. Neither worked. Hand squishing thousands of plants, multiple stems, is not possible. (Anyone want to volunteer to do this every day in 120+ degree greenhouses?)

I do understand that most people do NOT want Malathion used. Thankfully, we live in a country where we all have the right to share our opinion! It would be irresponsible for someone not to do so if he/she believes what we are doing is wrong. I respect your opinion, Mona, but experience has taught us that we are doing the responsible thing.

~Edith [Edith Smith of Shady Oaks Butterfly Farm in Florida]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: owner-dplex-l@listproc.cc.ku.edu [mailto:owner-dplex-l@listproc.cc.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Mona Miller
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 10:41 PM
To: dplex-l@listproc.cc.ku.edu
Subject: [DPLEX-L:44953] Re: Switching Milkweed Species for Caterpillars: Refusal To Eat?

It kills me that greenhouses don't want caterpillars eating up their milkweeds, but it's more than that. They spray to kill aphids. The spray they use kills Monarch caterpillars. I've heard Paul Cherubini tell people that it is okay to use Malathion to kill aphids. He even tells people that Edith Smith uses it at her farm. He tells people that it does not kill or harm the butterflies. Too bad the butterflies can't talk and tell us the truth.

http://www.monarchwatch.org/forums/view ... 299#p13299
Monarch Watch Forum

by **Paul Cherubini** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:11 pm

by **Mona Miller** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:34 pm

That is your opinion. Spraying plants with Malathion is unhealthy for plants, people, and the wildlife that use them.

Edith Smith never did answer my questions. Why?

by **NickiM** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:37 pm

I don't know where you heard that monarchs wouldn't lay eggs on aphid infested plants, but it isn't true in my garden. I had so many aphids on my swamp milkweed last year that all the buds shriveled up and it didn't bloom, but that's also the plant where I found most of my cats, probably 40 or so. Plus, the "grocery" patch that I frequent has common milkweed that it so aphid covered the underside of the leaves are more yellow than green, and I've found quite a few cats there too. I'm sure the monarchs would prefer no aphids, but it seems as though they'll lay eggs there if they can't find anything better.

by **Mona Miller** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:44 pm

I don't think I said they wouldn't lay on the milkweed with Aphids. But, Aphids sure do make the milkweed suffer.

by **blazing star** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:35 am

Researching Malathion I found that it "can" be safe for monarchs "to some degree". Evidently, YMMV.

it kills other beneficial insects, too.

by **Mona Miller** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:36 am

There has been no testing done on Monarchs that were raised on milkweeds sprayed with Malathion. This is one of the questions that I asked Edith Smith that she did not answer. I asked Edith if the University of Mississippi had tested her Monarchs for traces of Malathion.

by **blazing star** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:51 am

If they're eating the toxic chemical, they are bound to carry traces of it. Isn't this how target insects build up immunity?

I'm learning that mosquito abatement spray is going to do this very same thing. Allow mosquitoes to build up immunity and build resistant mosquitoes.

We poison our environment and wonder why our bats and bees and frogs our in peril.

by **Mona Miller** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:51 am

Rachel Carson wrote about how insects build up a tolerance to pesticides in her book "Silent Spring".

by **Paul Cherubini** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:58 am

Mona Miller wrote:Rachel Carson wrote about how insects build up a tolerance to pesticides in her book "Silent Spring".

Large commercial butterfly breeders have used Malathion for 15 consecutive years. They'll be using it 15 more years from now too. "Tolerance"/"Resistance" has not generally been a problem unless a pesticide is used on a landscape scale for many decades.

by **Paul Cherubini** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:07 am

Mona Miller wrote:There has been no testing done on Monarchs that were raised on milkweeds sprayed with Malathion. This is one of the questions that I asked Edith Smith that she did not answer. I asked Edith if the University of Mississippi had tested her Monarchs for traces of Malathion.

Why it would it matter if there were traces? Hundreds of thousands of honey beekeepers use synthetic miticides INSIDE millions of their hives. These miticides such as fluvalinate and coumaphos have residues that can be detected even after many weeks to years, but the amounts are too low to be of concern to wildlife that may consume honeybees.

by **Mona Miller** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:39 am

Health. I guess you really don't know what you are talking about do you. [-X

by **Paul Cherubini** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:57 am

Mona Miller wrote:Health. I guess you really don't know what you are talking about do you.

Health of what or whom? Humans? There are federal residue standards for malathion in a large variety of human foods and animal feeds;
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/mat ... 58412.html
In other words, detectable residues of Malathion (up to certain established limits) are allowed in a wide range of human foods and animals feeds because they pose no known risk to health.

by **Paul Cherubini** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:59 am

Oops, wrong link. This is the correct link: http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/180-111-malathi ... s-19814596

by **Paul Cherubini** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:02 pm

And don't forget Malathion is also approved for use on childrens heads
http://216.150.136.82/UploadImages/ovide_screenshot.JPG
at a strength that is much stronger than the concentration used to spray plants for aphids

by **Mona Miller** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:07 pm

"The Environmental Working Group recently updated its
Shopper's Guide to Pesticide in Produce
http://www.ewg.org/foodnews/summary/

that lets consumers know which fruits and vegetables have the most -- and the least -- pesticide residues. Apples, it turns out, leads the contaminated list, so it's best to buy apples that have been organically grown. As shown in public and private studies, pesticides have been linked to a variety of health problems, including:

ADHD
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/05/17/pe ... index.html

Peeling your conventionally grown carrots and potatoes will remove some pesticide residues as will trimming the outer leaves of cabbage, lettuce, and other leafy greens. A short water rinse also reduces pesticide residues and other impurities."

As I have already stated, 'Health'.

by **Paul Cherubini** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:19 pm

The Environmental Working Group is a .org advocacy group, not a government agency so it's recommendations are just private opinions, not government agency recommendations.

by **blazing star** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:08 pm

Paul Cherubini wrote:And don't forget Malathion is also approved for use on childrens heads

Bawhahahahahah This post has to take the cake.

by **blazing star** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:14 pm

Paul Cherubini wrote:The Environmental Working Group is a .org advocacy group, not a government agency so it's recommendations are just private opinions, not government agency recommendations.

Kinda like you saying pesticides (which are known to kill living things) are safe is just a private opinion in that it comes from a man who reads blogs and uses that information to form his opinion which is contrary to that of a collective opinion of scientists that specifically study the matter. Is that what you mean by private opinion? If so, then I agree.

by **blazing star** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:16 pm

Let's get this post back on track. The original poster probably has enough information to form their own conclusion if they wish to use chemicals in their garden. I'll be happy to pick this up in a dedicated thread but let's let the OP get the info they seek.

by **Paul Cherubini** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:16 pm

blazing star wrote: Kinda like you saying pesticides (which are known to kill living things) are safe is just a private opinion in that it comes from a man who reads blogs and uses that information to form his opinion which is contrary to that of a collective opinion of scientists that specifically study the matter. Is that what you mean by private opinion?

None of this is about me. It's the collective position of the PhD scientists at the US Environmental Protection Agency who have said (via product registration approval) that the use of a strong 0.5% spray of Malathion insecticide on the heads of children (6+ yrs old ) to kill lice insects is safe.

Some scientists also work for .org advocacy type groups, but they are not maintream scientists and do not always have mainstream views like the ones who work at the EPA, USDA, etc.

by **blazing star** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:54 pm

So the fact that you profit from selling toxins is not about you and in no way is an influence to your surfing the web talking about how safe they are when they are designed to kill living organisms. Ok I'll buy that.

The EPA says it's safe? Ok,it must be. I'll buy that, too.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPA_9/11_p ... ontroversy

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/ ... 030801.asp

http://www.scientificamerican.com/podca ... 414B7F0000

by **Paul Cherubini** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:49 pm

Here are examples of two more professional monarch breeders who use Malathion to control aphids and other pests on milkweed:

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87 ... w/pmba.jpg
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87 ... w/pmbb.jpg

by **Mona Miller** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:05 pm

You go from starting problems on one list to poking people to start problems on another list.

Read this new piece of information that I found out about you know who:

http://tinyurl.com/d886yft
Four Wings and a Prayer: Caught in the Mystery of the Monarch Butterfly By Sue Halpern

by **Paul Cherubini** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:54 pm

Mona Miller wrote:You go from starting problems on one list to poking people to start problems on another list. Read this new piece of information that I found out about you know who:
http://tinyurl.com/d886yft
Four Wings and a Prayer: Caught in the Mystery of the Monarch Butterfly By Sue Halpern

That information is not "new"... that book was published in 2001. And how is that book information relevant to the issue of controlling aphids and other pests on milkweed? Yes the book says I am a pesticide salesman, but that fact makes me even more qualified to know what pesticides will work to control aphids without harming monarchs just like a pharmacist is more qualified to know what drugs will kill unwanted germ type bugs without harming humans.

by **blazing star** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:08 pm

Oh My! I'm shocked! Paul Cherubini sell, and profits, from toxins that kill Monarchs! Who woulda thunk? LOL!

All users visiting can look at each one of Paul's posts, and all of his pictures, and see that he posts statements with no back up evidence. He posts a huge tent of monarchs and then declares that large monarch breeders use his toxic killing compounds.

How does this picture prove his statement? It doesn't. Another huge shocker there. His lack of logic may serve as proof that toxic chemical are not good for living being. This is your brain.....this is your brain on toxic chemicals.

by **Paul Cherubini** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:53 pm

blazing star wrote: He posts a huge tent of monarchs and then declares that large monarch breeders use his toxic killing compounds. How does this picture prove his statement? It doesn't.

In a post above I posted a huge tent of MILKWEED (not monarchs) and I stated that the large monarch breeder who owns that tent uses Malathion on the milkweed to control aphids. The reason I know this is true is because the breeder in question had me come over to his farm to advise him on how to control the aphids.

Likewise on Dec. 19 & 20, 2007, Edith Smith, owner of perhaps the largest monarch breeding farm in the eastern USA wrote the following on the "'Butterfly farmers and enthusiasts mailing list'" <butterflyfarming@butterflymarket.com> "We use Malathion all the time. We have dunked milkweed into mixed Malathion and fed it directly to caterpillars, they pupated, and emerged with no problems."

Then I posted these two links that show two more large breeders use Malathion to control aphids:
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87 ... w/pmba.jpg
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87 ... w/pmbb.jpg

Collectively, this shows that four large breeders use Malathion and are pleased with it's effectiveness against aphids while not being harmful to monarch caterpillars. And three of those four breeders have been willing to publicly state they use Malathion.

by **Mona Miller** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:02 pm

Paul Cherubini wrote:
blazing star wrote: He posts a huge tent of monarchs and then declares that large monarch breeders use his toxic killing compounds. How does this picture prove his statement? It doesn't.

In a post above I posted a huge tent of MILKWEED (not monarchs) and I stated that the large monarch breeder who owns that tent uses Malathion on the milkweed to control aphids. The reason I know this is true is because the breeder in question had me come over to his farm to advise him on how to control the aphids.

Likewise on Dec. 19 & 20, 2007, Edith Smith, owner of perhaps the largest monarch breeding farm in the eastern USA wrote the following on the "'Butterfly farmers and enthusiasts mailing list'" <butterflyfarming@butterflymarket.com> "We use Malathion all the time. We have dunked milkweed into mixed Malathion and fed it directly to caterpillars, they pupated, and emerged with no problems."

Then I posted these two links that show two more large breeders use Malathion to control aphids:
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87 ... w/pmba.jpg
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87 ... w/pmbb.jpg

Collectively, this shows that four large breeders use Malathion and are pleased with it's effectiveness against aphids while not being harmful to monarch caterpillars. And three of those four breeders have been willing to publicly state they use Malathion.

But, what you didn't post was my question to Edith on whether she had her Monarchs tested to make sure there were no ill effects. She never answered my question. She really doesn't know. And, neither do you. You tell people to do this and that and all you know is that it kills stuff. Most butterfly people I know don't use pesticides in their gardens. Most people on this list aren't huge butterfly farmers either.

All I know is that you like to argue, that you hate scientists, and try to prove them wrong even to the point of lying about the real facts. Haven't you been helping the Southwest Monarch Study since like 2002 or 2003? Didn't you actually go to Mexico and buy some blue tags there? How can anyone believe that the Monarchs actually made it there?

You know what I wonder. The Desert Museum has been buying hundreds of Monarchs from a CA butterfly farmer and tagging and releasing them since 2003? How has that affect the local population? They have also been adding milkweed to the area. How has that affect the local population of milkweed? Seems to me like they are building up an artificial population in that area due to their releases and milkweed plantings? Wherever or whatever or whoever you are involved in/with always makes me wonder if it is legitimate?

I actually asked Gail Morris how many they have released and she would not tell me.

by **Paul Cherubini** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:41 pm

Mona Miller wrote: But, what you didn't post was my question to Edith on whether she had her Monarchs tested to make sure there were no ill effects.

You have already read this study that shows inbred farm raised monarchs migrate to the overwintering sites: http://swallowtailfarms.com/pages/educa ... s_mms.html So what would one "test" these strong, healthy butterflies for? They were strong enough to fly across the desert from New Mexico to California. The butterflies in that study came from a farm that uses Malathion to control aphids.

by **Mona Miller** » Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:05 pm

We all know how malathion effects you. #-o

Why would we want to expose our selves and our children?

by **Paul Cherubini** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:56 pm

Mona Miller wrote: You know what I wonder. The Desert Museum has been buying hundreds of Monarchs from a CA butterfly farmer and tagging and releasing them since 2003? How has that affect the local population? They have also been adding milkweed to the area. How has that affect the local population of milkweed? Seems to me like they are building up an artificial population in that area due to their releases and milkweed plantings?

Are you saying you are opposed to increasing monarch numbers via releases and milkweed plantings?

by **Mona Miller** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:33 pm

Paul Cherubini wrote:
Mona Miller wrote: You know what I wonder. The Desert Museum has been buying hundreds of Monarchs from a CA butterfly farmer and tagging and releasing them since 2003? How has that affect the local population? They have also been adding milkweed to the area. How has that affect the local population of milkweed? Seems to me like they are building up an artificial population in that area due to their releases and milkweed plantings?

Are you saying you are opposed to increasing monarch numbers via releases and milkweed plantings?

We all know how malathion effects you. #-o

Why would we want to expose ourselves and our children? [-X

by **Paul Cherubini** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:56 pm

Mona Miller wrote:Questions for Edith Smith on the Use of Malathion on Milkweed to kill Aphids (I need clarification of a few things):
3. Have your Monarchs been tested for Malathion levels by MS or any other organization?
6. Has MS tested or given information or have you inquired about whether you use of Malathion could cause genetic or health problems with the Monarchs that you are raising?

No butterfly farmers, to my knowledge, have reported adult butterfly health, developmental or egg productivity problems when the caterpillars were fed Malathion treated milkweed generation after generation. If use of Malathion resulted in short lived, low egg production butterflies, butterfly farmers would obviously not want to use them for breeding as they would deminish farm profits. But Edith, like other butterfly farmers, have not reported health, egg production or developmental deformity consequences when they fed their caterpillars Malathion treated milkweed generation after generation for 10+ years.

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