swollen abdomen

[skates4marty]

Adding to the list of new problems I have seen this year: I have had several B's with swollen abdomens. A couple were so swollen I could see green between the segments (see pic). I sent a query to monarchparasites.org asking if it is yet another sign of Oe. They replied: "A swollen abdomen is not a sign of Oe. ... may be the sign of some other bacterial pathogen."

I also thought, "Maybe it's something I'm doing/not doing." But I asked a friend in her third year of raising, and she said she has had a couple this year as well. She and I did share a MW patch for a few days. Two others in our group (who did not use that patch of MW) have not seen this.

Has anyone else had B's with this problem this year? Or in years past?

[skates4marty]

Hmm... thought I had google-searched thoroughly, but just found this:

http://www.teachingwithmonarchs.com/disease.html

" ...with heavy Oe ... If they fully emerge, often their wings are crippled, their abdomens are swollen, green is visible on their abdomens, and/or they die within a few days."

[applestar]

Did they excrete the left over "meconium" (dark orange/red fluid) after eclosing?

[Mona Miller]

Did you test for OE? I had a friend that I was talking with yesterday and she said that she'd had that happen, but when she tested them for OE that they were clean. She said she tried to feed them, waited a couple of days and the swelling went down. It was like they had some type of bowel obstruction and could not release the fluid.

[skates4marty]

Did they excrete the left over "meconium" (dark orange/red fluid) after eclosing?

I don't know. I had several eclosing per cage, plus all the other health issues of new B's dropping.

The first big-bodied female couldn't fly. Her wings looked normal; I think she was just too heavy. I figured, like you did, that her plumbing was stopped up and the excess hadn't been excreted. I hoped that if I put her on a plant in the sun, time, heat, and movement would move things along. The next day, I found her on the ground in that part of the garden, still with the enlarged abdomen. I fed her (she ate) and I put her back on a plant.

With Oe, the tip of the abdomen doesn't release from the C-shell. Maybe these big-bodied butterflies have the same problem but it is manifesting itself differently -- their illness/defect/deformity stops their development just short of where that top bit of C-shell would be worked off, and a little bit of it is literally plugging them up.

I have not studied the tips of B's abdomens before to know what is normal and abnormal.

[skates4marty]

Did you test for OE?

I took a sample. Have studied it many times with a not-great microscope. I can't see spores, but as I am a beginner, I can't say with any confidence that it is negative.

I'm going to take samples from the more-probable-Oe butterflies that I have in the freezer to get better at ID-ing the spores.

If I get any more of these B's, I will do as your friend did and keep them a couple of days.

[Mona Miller]

Some butterflies that have OE will look perfectly normal. The best thing to do is learn how to test them.

http://www.mymonarchguide.com/2007/07/d ... spore.html
Look at the pictures of how OE can affect the coloration on the abdomen.

Butterflies that eclose in the fall usually have thicker abdomens. I guess the caterpillar knows that it will be traveling and usually you'll get a larger butterfly. The caterpillars that I am seeing outside now are huge. Butterflies that are migrating will/can put on fat because they need that fat to make it through the winter.

[skates4marty]

>> Look at the pictures of how OE can affect the coloration on the abdomen. <<<

I'm trying to develop an eye for that. A couple of mine had only very faint or no stripes, as pictured on that Web page.

>> Butterflies that eclose in the fall usually have thicker abdomens. <<<

Huh. I didn't know that.

[Mona Miller]

If they are getting enough to eat, I've seen some pretty fat fall Monarchs. They are able to put on the weight in the fall unlike they do in the spring and summer.