fertilizer to use on milkweed??

[tarheel]

As a rule of thumb, what is the method to use for fertilizing, like MiracleGro, Peter's etc? I have a friend & neighbor that is raising Monarchs for her second year. She is having catastrophic results; all of her cats grow, look healthy, have been brought in either as very early 1st instar or as soon as she finds them in the wild. She has kept them with only 4-5 per container & the instars as close together in groups as possible. Her cages are kept clean, & so far as I have seen, her methods are fine. Her cats seems healthy until the j-hook; then it looks like the 'insides' sink down, leaving a empty, sagging whithered skin, that is followed by the entire skin turning 'blackish, loosing its green color. The cats look horrid, I have never seen anything quite like it. The cat will either simply hang limp, dead, or go on to look like, (before the black look taking place), to start to split the skin behind the head, at which point the process stops. The green that 'would be the chrysalis', bulges & is a soft green blob, leaking what look like clear colored drops, that turns into a black spot on the paper towel below. (There are no signs of larvae or anything that appears to be inside, as some of the posts have mentioned. I have helped her search through the posts & haven't seen anything quite like this.)She has kept everything as close to the way we have both seen described on the forums. She used plastic shoe boxes this year, (thoroughly sanitizing each time she cleans & replenishes her food) switching from deli containers used last year. Anybody have any ideas on what the problem is? I speculated on the type of fertilizer, but withheld any opinions. I remember reading a post when I first started reading the posts that someone didn't purchase their mweed because 'some particular fertilizer may have been used', but don't remember the name of that brand. She is on city water, as I am, & we both are in a quandry as to what has happened. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. All of the cats have died the same way, so it seems there is something really wrong going on. Thanks & God Bless tar

[Mona Miller]

Did you notice any strings hanging down like those left by fly larvae? Sounds very similar to fly larvae except for the part about them not being able to finish pupation. Someone said this could be due to another caterpillar silking over the other and then the skin gets snagged. I've seen this problem with too much heat. Don't raise too close to a window. You can pick up fly larvae eggs off milkweed and I don't think washing gets it off. The flies will lay on the milkweed. Do a search on flies on the forum?

[Paul Cherubini]

For 18 years the San Diego based Monarch Program has used Peters 20-20-20 on their Asclepias currassavica plants. I use MiracleGro because it's readily available at Home Depot. Never heard of these fertilizers creating toxicity problems for the caterpillars.

[Mona Miller]

I did just read that the increased level of nitrogen does attract aphids. Next year, I want to try Nasturium as a trap crop.

Also, I guess we will have to assume there is no damage using these high nitrogen fertilizers, because there is no scientific evidence to the contrary.

[tarheel]

Thanks so much for the replies. We went through all aspets of the 'rearing environment', & the only thing that was the common factor was 'the food'. It just seemed 'all but impossible' that they all died the same way, from parasites. No stringies were seen hanging. After the first several died, she brought some of her smaller plants with lots of healthy leaves & some blooms, that she had rinsed off really well outside, & let the cats loose on the plants. Placing plastic underneath to catch the frass, & she stayed on top of sweeping to keep clean. I have never seen anybody so dedicated in trying to do things right for her cats, only to have to get rid of them. It was heart breaking for her, as well as for me. I realize that many are lost to disease, & other factors each season, & am fearing she is so discouraged that she may never try again. Was hoping to find an answer to help encourage her that it wasn't her fault. This is almost too 'gross' to ask, but for the sake of the Monarchs, has anyone else had these 'morbid looking head-buldging-limp hanging' results? We checked to see if there was anything, like the silk from other cats that were stopping the process from going through to completion, but none were found. To try to eliminate anything interfering with the cat's process of completing the pupation, some were placed as a lone cat on their own plant. Is one of the biggest mysteries I have ever experienced in the 10 years I have raised Monarchs as well as BST's. We have gone through the processes of elimination & come up empty handed, or empty-minded. Our town hasn't sprayed for mosquiotes, or anything this season, checked with the town officials, as this was one of the things that crossed our minds. I was concerned that this may have been the situation. I had a few that ended up like this, with the process stopping with the 'split of the skin behind the head', & also noticed no stringies, but nowhere the extent she did. Thanks again for the input, & we will just keep scratching our heads & praying.Thanks for the input from all. tar

[Mona Miller]

Some pesticides like pyrethrums can stay on plants for a long time even being drawn into the plant. Did you raise these from seeds or cuttings? Or, the pesticides can stay in the soil. We've had some crazy parasities and diseases this year too. I've only had the pupa not finish its pupation when my tent got too hot. City water, too can be an issue.

There are many bacteria, viruses, etc., that can attack butterflies. Luckily, it seems to vary from year to year.

[tarheel]

She raised the plants from seeds that I gave her from my seedpods from last year. I remember her saying that on May 1st, she used some Bayer product that was for a horrrid infestation of spider mites, the largest type of red spiders I have ever seen. Usually you can't see them with the naked eye, but these were large enough that I took photos of them. She had gotten some plants from a place on-line & the plants came infested with these horrid large mites. I was so enraged, to think a reputable on-line company that specializes in supplying Monarch supplies & plants would send infected plants as they could spread here, locallly & become an annual horror. I was 'this close' to sending the place she got them from the photos & complaining. Praying that her "lot of them" were smitten with the dreadful Bayer product. She had me come over & tell her what they were. So, with the Monarchs showing up here, usually in early August, she thought she would have had plenty of time for the Bayer stuff to clear itself, but I guess it stays longer. It was a systemic. I don't use any pesticides, but on very rare occasion in early plant development have used Safer Insecticidal soap for the red spiders; using the dunk plant method & rinsing every day. Never use as much as recommended, maybe 1/4 the recommended mixture. I rinse over the fireant hills, hoping to do the damage to them, as we have to do something here to control them, they are a real hazard to pets, and a nuisance to humans. Takes a lot of planning to rinse over their hills, as they are fast as lightening & attack anything, usually can get them under control by drowning them with lots & lots of water, if not drowning, at least running them underground, & then rinsing pesticide off. Our local coastal weather & humidity seem to be ideal for the onset on early seedlings of red spiders. That hadn't crossed my mind about the Bayer product. Something somebody told her about that would 'clear itself in 30 days' ..which turned ot not to be the case. All other things considered, that is the only thing left. Thanks so much. Now to figure out how for her to get rid of what she has left safely. Certainly not pour it out & allow it to get into the ground water. I know all of the town council & will inquire how to get rid of hazardous waste; rest assured I will find a way to handle it properly. Thanks again & God Bless..tar

[Paul Cherubini]

Whether or not an insecticide is classified as a contact, residual, systemic, organic or synthetic has little bearing on it's toxicity to monarch caterpillars. What matters is how susceptible the caterpillars are to small amounts of the chemical and how long the residues last in real world settings.

In the case of Malathion, even though malathion is classified as a residual, the caterpillars tolerate relatively high amounts of it so monarch breeders feel comfortable feeding caterpillars milkweeds that have been treated with Malathion. In the case of natural, organic pyrethrin insecticides which are classified as non-residual, caterpillars are nevertheless extremely susceptible to tiny amounts. So pyrethrin treated plants can be lethal to monarch caterpillars for several months. The Bayer systemics
might be lethal for several months too - it's something you can't know in advance - one needs to carry out tests instead of making judgements based on product classifications.

[Mona Miller]

Malathion is from what I've read lethal to lady bugs up to 2 weeks after use. If you wash it off outside and it rains then it gets into the run off and into the streams and there goes your amphibians. Also, as far as I know your recommended use of this product is against its recommended use and therefore against the law.