New cocoon just fell - Need help

[GBMonarch]

I have 13 happy cocoons at the top of my butterfly cage, but the last little guy decided to make his on the edge of the tupperware bowl with the milkweed leaves in it. He was in a J this morning and when I got back tonight the cocoon was laying on the bottom of the cage. I've seen several replies about trying to tie a cocoon back so it can hang, but I'm not sure how long to wait before I do it. Can someone give me some advice? Will it hurt the butterfly if the cocoon stays laying down?

Thanks,

[Jim]

Hi "GB" - welcome to the Forums!

To clarify, monarchs (and most butterflies for that matter) don't spin "cocoons" (the silk covering that encases most moth pupae); rather, they shed their caterpillar skin to form a pupa or chrysalis.

As for your fallen pupa, if you are careful about it you can tie a thread (dental floss also works well) around the cremaster and hang it immediately. Depending on the height at which it fell and where it was in the pupation process when the fall occurred, the pupa may develop a flat spot...whether or not this will affect development/emergence is highly variable.

That said, monarch pupae do not need to be hanging in order to emerge properly - as long as they have access to a rough vertical surface nearby. Most monarchs we raise emerge in individual chambers - the hardened pupa is placed on a paper towel and a plastic drinking cup with screening affixed to the interior walls is inverted over the pupa, giving the monarch a rough surface to climb up and hang to expand its wings upon emergence.

Hope this helps - good luck!

[Farfalla]

Hey, Jim.. do you have a pic of the emergence chamber?I know I heard you mention it in several posts.. but I just can't get a visual

Oh and ditto..nice to meetcha GB!

(Jim.. you need a little hand -shaking emotiguy )

[dzyg]

I am curious as to whether the crysallis looks normal or not. I have had two crysallis fall during the making of the crysallis. They both fell after all the skin had been split and fallen off but before the crysallis formed its normal shape, they both were elongated yet. Neither of these made it even though I immediately tied string to the cremaster and hung them up to finish the process and they looked pretty normal once they were done. One of them started to hatch but something was wrong and it could't seperate from the crysallis, the other ended up turning black and dieing. I also had three form their crysallis on the side of the container and all three had flat spots on them. I turned the containers so they hung straight for the time it took them until they hatched and they all hatched fine. Good luck with yours, hope it is ok!

Donna

[Farfalla]

We had one at school that formed it's chrysalis to the side of the critter keeper instead of at the top. It was "stuck" to the side and was flattened in that area. I could not imagine that it would emerge a healthy butterfly.. but it did.

I am curious about those Monarchs that die in the pupa stage....Do they appear to be healthy active caterpillars?

We all need to get cameras like yours, Donna.. So we can take detailed pics to post!

[Teresa]

I've had many cats form on a flat surface and they usually turn out fine.

[GBMonarch]

Thanks to everyone for your responses. The chrysalis that fell looks fine, but the little cremaster seems pretty short. I will try and hang it with some dental floss.

I did notice a tiny black spot on another chrysalis today. Is that normal? I don't see any on the other ones. I just want to be sure that it's not some problem I should watch for, like those wasps I've read about in the forum.

You guys are a great help to a novice like me.

Thanks

[Farfalla]

I know what you mean, GB....Although I have never experienced it..I am always worried about parasites like flies etc..I am still trying to develop a "scientific" state of mind. (But I don't think I will ever be able to say:"Oh look at that wasp or maggot emerging from the chrysalis? Isn't that INTERESTING")

Where is your black spot? It is normal for the chrysalis to have tiny black spots up near the cremaster .This diagram shows the "spots" http://www.monarchwatch.org/biology/sexing.htm

Check out this site to learn more about Monarch health: http://www.monarchparasites.org/
There are pics of unhealthy pupa there.

Keep us posted.

[Jim]

Hey, Jim.. do you have a pic of the emergence chamber? I know I heard you mention it in several posts.. but I just can't get a visual

Here you go:

[Pat]

Now that's a cool idea! Look like they'll even stack together for winter storage when not in use.
Pat

[Farfalla]

Thanks for taking that picture,Jim.
Now I see!
Is that fabric-type sceen simply folded inside the cup?

[Pat]

Looks like it's stapled to the side of the cup to hold it in place.
Pat

[Farfalla]

Ahh. You are right, Pat.
Thanks!

[Jim]

Yep, we have several stacks of them in our lab and they don't take up much room at all.

The mesh is fiberglass insect screening that you can pick up at virtually any hardware store or home center. This seems to hold up quite well to the washing/disinfecting after each use. It is held in place with a coulple of staples - we used hot glue first but it didn't last very long.

[Gwynne]

Jim, that is so cool looking! Maybe you guys should start selling them! Lol. I take it you move the chrysalis?? I would be afraid to damage it. How do you move a chrysalis, anyway? Other than very carefully!

[Farfalla]

Jim, where do the caterpillars in your labs form their *chrysalis?
(And just what IS the plural of *that anyway?)

[Jim]

How do you move a chrysalis, anyway? Other than very carefully!

Once the pupa has had some time to harden (we usually give them a day or so) you can use forceps or the like to lift away the silk mat and move the pupa to another location.

Jim, where do the caterpillars in your labs form their *chrysalis? (And just what IS the plural of *that anyway?)

It depends...sometimes we raise the big cats in large tubs and they pupate on the milkweed plants or the sides of the tub; other times we raise them in smaller plastic containers (ziplock or deli cup types) and they pupate on the undersides of the lids. They are then moved to trays and the chambers are placed over them.

Singular form:
chrys·a·lis : Click for pronunciation

chrys·a·lid : Click for pronunciation

Plural form:
chrys·a·lis·es : no pronunciation audio for this one, sorry.

chry·sal·i·des : Click for pronunciation

Etymology from Wikipedia:
Latin chrysallis, from Greek chrysallís The term is derived from the metallic gold-colouration found in the pupae of many butterflies referred to by the Greek chrysós (gold).

The monarch's gold spots are certainly beautiful, but I think this species does it one better:

[Farfalla]

Thanks ,Jim (especially for the audio)!

And.. OMG.. Are those chrysalises for REAL? Who makes them?

[Gwynne]

Yeah, dont leave us hanging! Who makes those beautiful chrysalises? Speaking of the gold color, my neighbor was looking at my pictures yesterday and she wanted to know what function the gold dotted line at the top of the monarch's chrysalis holds. I had to tell her I dont know but I would ask.

[GBMonarch]

I wasn't able to rehang the chrysalis that fell. The little cremaster was too small to tie with the dental floss. It's a good thing I never tried to be a brain surgeon! Anyway, I left laying down with some paper towels to climb by the wall of the net cage, so it can climb up.

The two little black spots on the chrysalis I mentioned in my previous post are about 3/4 of the way down on one side. The rest of the chrysalis looks fine. I'm not sure if I should take it down and move it or not. Any advice would be appreciated.

I'm also wondering how long they stay in the chrysalis, I have one that's been in there awhile. I have them in the house in a soft tent castle cage, I'm wondering if I should move it outside. Does the daylight affect emergence?

[Gwynne]

I am no expert, but I had five caterpillars make chrysalises this year and have been keeping a little journal. Four of them emerged after 9 days and one took 10 days. I keep them inside under flourescent light. I turn the light on in the morning and off sometime at night.

[Farfalla]

My experience has been around 12 days. Keeping a journal as Gwynne does is a really great idea. This page of the MonarchWatch web site explains the cycle very ....well. http://www.monarchwatch.org/rear/index.htm

[chabeda]

I was worried when my caterpillar began to pupate while lying down on the bottom of the container.
(This one had been fed vegetable skin after I began to run out of milkweed, but most of the others are doing fine.)

http://www.monarchwatch.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=480

[Gwynne]

GB, it has been 14 days since your original post. I am anxious to hear the outcome, if the butterfly emerged safely.

Jim, please do not keep us in suspense any longer! Who made the gold chrysalises?

[Jim]

Jim, please do not keep us in suspense any longer! Who made the gold chrysalises?

He-he...actually I don't know for sure. There are lots of species that have metallic-like components of the chrysalis. If anyone can ID these pupae please let us know

You might be able to get more info from the source: http://www.sxc.hu/browse.phtml?f=view&id=270267

[Farfalla]

Hi Jim! Thought you were MIA This chrysalis doesn't look real! I found a discussion about the photo on another butterfly forum. Someone posted this link: http://www.sasionline.org/costarica/pag ... -bugs.html
What do you think? If I ever get to Costa Rica ..I'll check it out in person.

[GBMonarch]

Sadly my chrysalis that fell didn't make it. I waited forever and then took it out to take a good look at it. An earwig ran out from under the papter towel I had crumpled by the chrysalis to give the butterfly something to climb on to get onto the netting in the cage. I have no idea how the critter got in there because the cage has very fine netting, but it had chewed on the chrysalis and destoyed it.

The good news is that I just released my 14th happy healthy Monarch and have 6 more hanging in my cage with another in the "J". I'm having a lot of luck with raising eggs and have the biggest, hungriest caterpillars from them. Needless to say, I have moved the cage to an "earwig" proof area and keep an eye out for those sneaky creepy things.

[Farfalla]

So sorry to hear that! Ewwww sneaky earwigs!

Congrats on your otherwise healthy Monarchs, though!!!!!

[Jim]

Someone posted this link: http://www.sasionline.org/costarica/pag ... -bugs.html
What do you think? If I ever get to Costa Rica ..I'll check it out in person.

I think you'd win the prize (if there was one)...Tithorea tarricina (cream-spotted clearwing) a Nymphalid (same family as monarchs) found in central and south america:

www.cs.umb.edu/~whaber/Monte/Ithomid/Tith-tarr.html

I remember seeing this butterfly in Costa Rica many moons ago, I just never saw that amazing chrysalis

[Farfalla]

Woo Hoo!!! I win!:mrgreen:
I think those chrysalises are amazing...but to me nothing beats the satiny -- golden -flecked- jade green of a Monarchs chrysalis.
I would wear a Monarchs chysalisas a necklace pendant.The Cream-Spotted Clearwings..though a beauty... is a little loud and garish for my taste

[Gwynne]

Okay, who knows what function the gold flecked thing that looks like a zipper at the top of the chrysalis serves? My neighbor wants to know and I have no idea! Could it have something to do with the last part of the caterpillar forming the chrysalis?

[Farfalla]

Nobody knows. Unless Jim has new info?

From Journey North:http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/monarch/ExpertAnswer06.html

Q: What is the gold for on the chrysalis and how does it turn black? Baeley/Jack
A: Fred Urquhart first studied the gold spots on monarchs in the 1970s. He felt that the spots were involved in the distribution or formation wing scale coloration. However, the experiments that he did involved cauterizing the gold spots on the pupa, and it is possible that this process may have damaged the underlying tissue and affected the color patterns. Interestingly, all danaine butterflies (monarchs and their relatives) have metallic spots on them. A group of researchers in Germany did a careful study of the properties of these spots. They are not metallic, but the cells reflect light like metals do, giving them the appearance of being metallic. Other danaids have silver, copper, or gold spots.

Here are some hypotheses for the reasons that these butterflies have metallic-looking spots on their pupae:
a) camouflage – they could reflect colors of the surroundings and break up the shape of the pupa; they might also look like dew droplets.
b) Warning coloration
c) Filtering particular wavelengths of light which might be harmful to the monarchs
d) They might not have any function, but just be the result of something else in the cuticle of the insect.

[Gwynne]

Thanks for the information. My neighbor thinks it has some sort of function. By the way, I am only talking about the zipper looking thing at the top and not the gold flecks found throughout. I will have to show her what you have written. Thanks!

[Sandwhy]

Just wanted to say thanks for the brilliant idea of the "Emergence Chamber"... freakin' brilliant. I made three of them today and will be testing them out very soon. As in tomorrow. Wish me luck.

Sandy

[butterflylover]

Hi folks,

been reading the forums and it is very helpful doing so even to the experienced. I have been doing the rearing for over 5 years and yet I learn new stuff each time I visit the forums. The emergance chambers Is really something I should of been using this year. I can't tell you how many times I have had a butterfly fall after emerging and ended up with damaged wings. I will do this next season.
Also on the subject of the light and how many days until they hatch. Over my five years of experience I have come to find that temperature is everything! Last year I had some in my foyer in the fall (very warm and sunny in there) and they always hatched within 10 days. I also had some in a room where the temps where equal to the outdoors and when it was cold out it took them up to 14+ days to hatch. Keep them warm and they will hatch much sooner. All your posts are very interesting and helpful. Thanks Jim for the chamber Idea. Butterflylover

[monarch1]

On Memorial Day I found the first 3 of nearly 30 monarch eggs. I did this in 7th grade for fun. That was a "few" years ago. With two children, I thought it would be a great idea to start again. I've sarted an epidemic. Since then, We've raised nearly 60 monarch butterflies. The in-laws have raised about 20 and my sister in-law has also put "nursery" in an her insurance office for public viewing. The reaction was great. People were amazed.
Most of all, the kids were great with them and totally astounded to see them emerge to the butterfly and letting them go. And my 6 year old received the "Animal Knowledge" award in Kindergarten.

[freda]

This reply is very outdated relative to the original topic. Unfortunately any of the links and photos don't seem to be accessible any more. There was a reference to Donna's photos and I didn't see any. The photo which Jim added of the "other beautiful chrysalis" isn't active now...at least not on my system.

I"m loving the forums...this is my first year rearing indoors and I have been reading every topic for information. (110 chrysalids taped to our cage and our first emerged this morning.)

I’m considering using iced cap glasses for the WHOLE PROCESS. Several contributors said they raised their cats in individual containers. I’m thinking that netting or mesh could be glued or fastened over the hole in the iced cap glass, leaves added, chrysalis form on the domed lid, then a mesh insert placed in the glass once the chrysalis has formed. Does it sound as if that would work?

[freda]

replying to my own post...I let one cat pupate from the dome of a Starbucks iced capp cup but it didn't allow enough room for expanding its wings when it emerged so I've scrapped that idea. Back to the drawing board: leaning towards a homemade fresh air habitat thanks to everyone's photos and descriptions.

[KimK]

How does the cocoon have oxygen in the 10 oz cup?

[Mona Miller]

First, as Jim said above butterflies make chrysalis and moths make cocoons.

Most people put holes into their containers.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1529&p=7266&hilit=rearing#p7125
This discussion on rearing will give you an idea of how to raise your caterpillars and take care of the adults.

There's a lot to learn. Before you know it, you will be giving other people advice.

[sassypriscilla]

I put a coffee filter over the top of my cups and rubberband them on. The monarchs make their chrysalises on the filter and it can easily be removed and pinned onto my butterfly tent.

[Mona Miller]

First, Monarchs make chrysalis not cocoons, moths make cocoons. The difference is that a butterfly caterpillar sheds its skin and what's inside becomes the chrysalis (pupa). The moth makes a cocoon around it's pupa. But, some moths actually live in the soil and do not make cocoons only pupa. Now that I've confused you.

Your pupa fell when it was pupating (shedding its skin) or it fell after it had pupated.

We just had this problem and I wonder if I can located the answer. Oh dear.

[Mona Miller]

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=210&start=0&hilit=pupa%2C+fell
This is a discussion about a fallen pupa (chrysalis).

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1860&p=8772&hilit=pupa%2C+fell#p8773
Jim shows the picture of how Monarch Watch emerges them laying down, but if the pupa gets to flat on one side there could be problems. Monarch Watch does this after they are hardened.

They are difficult to handle before they harden a bit. If it is hardened, just do what Jim recommended. If it is not harden, I've put a piece of wax paper under it carefully so it doesn't stick to anything. If you are handy with dental floss, you can try to tie some to the cremaster. But, you have to be careful. I've mess up, way too many times doing this. Here I have it tied and I am trying to put it up and it falls off the dental floss. Better to wait a bit with it on the wax paper and then put it up later.

PS. I searched on "pupa, fell".