Some Questions About Monarchs

[Gwynne]

Does anyone know the best time for finding caterpillars in Pennsylvania? I found four this year, but I have looked other years and havent found any. In fact I only found a group once, 30 years ago! I notice every one else is reporting finding dozens of eggs and caterpillars. Do you have to go out every day and check different patches of milkweed? We have tons growing where I live but I dont know the best month to check for caterpillars and how often to check for them.

My four caterpillars have been in the chrysalis stage for seven days now. Assuming they emerge, where should I release them? I live on the second floor of a condominium. Should I release them from my balcony or bring them back to the same milkweed plants that I found them in?

What should I do if it looks like some are going to hatch when I am going to work? Is it safe to transport a cage? Or should I just come home at lunchtime to release them?

I had a very hard time finding anything to keep the caterpillars in and would like to know what other people use. I found a small mesh and plastic cage at walmart. I then bought a bigger hermit crab cage at the pet shop. When I went to move them, two had already started forming their chrysalises. Two days ago, I found a light weight aquarium at the goodwill store. I have put the little cage in their and propped the door open so if a butterfly does emerge when I am at work, it will at least be able to have room to move around. I really had to struggle to find anything suitable to keep the caterpillars in. How long can they stay in the cage before being released?

Also, if these butterflies emerge, will they lay eggs around here or will they go elsewhere to lay eggs? Thanks for any help you can give me.

[MILW]

hi Gwynne, it sounds like you must be doing alright if you have gotten 4 chrysalids! I like to raise them in an old aquarium, but it is best to have a screen or some other cover on the tank- otherwise the caterpillars may escape when they are done feeding. When I've had adults eclosing during the day, usually they rest for a couple of hours while their wings harden, so I don't release them until afternoon or evening- so at the end of your work day should be fine. Mine often only fly a short distance, either up into the trees or into the garden, and then hang out some more. They're usually gone in the morning though.

I think you can release them from your balcony- they will fly off and find flowers for nectar when they are ready. I'm not sure how far this brood will fly before laying eggs, I suppose they may continue northward for a while.

I check my plants nearly every day; some days I might find 6-12 eggs, one per plant. Have you noticed ants or earwigs on the plants that you are checking? If you see them, it might be best to bring any eggs you find indoors. None of the plants that I looked at this past week (in a state park in Wisconsin) had eggs. I found 3 older caterpillars, and there was quite a bit of feeding damage on the milkweed leaves.

Good luck with your butterflies, take some pictures if you can!
cheers- Scott

[dzyg]

Scott gave you some good advice. I am also in WI, and yes I found tons of eggs late in May. This however is not the norm. I usually find most of the eggs and caterpillars in late July or August. In May I was finding like 4 eggs per plant, I brought in over 100 eggs! I would just keep looking. Things have slowed down here alot but I am still finding eggs and cats, just not in huge amounts like I was earlier. The Monarchs seem to like to lay their eggs on the smaller newer plants best so check those first if you find any.

As far as containers, I mostly use the bigger 64oz plastic peanut butter jars with holes drilled in the lid. I have also used the larger containers that you find at a deli, with holes punched into the lid. I like to limit my containers to 2-3 cats per pb jar or 1-2 for the deli containers. I do have a few larger containers too that I will put more in but it gets so messy so quickly with lots of cats in one container. When I had my 90 or so cats I was literally cleaning and feeding them three times a day and I think it is harder in a large container. I like using a bunch of smaller ones better. I just had butterfly #105 and #106 hatch this morning. Two females, yeah the females are ahead again. LOL! I had 52 females and 52

I let my butterflies go either late afternoon, early evening or mostly this year, the next morning as I have a butterfly cage that I move the butterflies to once they are done drying their wings and start to move off the crysallis shell. I started doing this after several evenings of possible severe weather in our are. They don't feed until the day after they emerge so it is fine to leave them while you are at work. It is more fun to watch them though but transporting them could be dangerous if they started emerging when you were moving them. I actually had one fall from its crysallis this year shortly after emerging and before pumping the fluid into her wings but I was able to get her on my finger and she finished the process just fine and I was able to let her go.

Good luck with your butterflies, hope you find more cats or eggs!

Donna

[MILW]

Hi Donna, you're way ahead of me! I have a chrysalis that is about 8 days old, we took it camping with us this past week. The nights were pretty cool, about 50 degrees (we were at Hartman Creek SP, up by Waupaca) so this one may take a bit longer to eclose.

This morning we found 3 more eggs, again only one per plant. And one egg that had been sucked dry- with ants running on that plant.

I also like to use the snap cover takeout salad bowls from Culvers for the cats, with a damp paper towel to keep the leaves from drying out; but when they start to wander, we sometimes move them to a mesh bug-house. They like to crawl up the sides and hang from the mesh to make the chrysalis. I'll try to post some pix later today- I got a really nice photo of a female on some swamp milkweed up at the state park- here -


(off topic, you can see more photos on my wife's blog if interested )

cheers- Scott

[dzyg]

Great shot! I just posted one of my pics under the "new daddy" post. I sometimes will take pics of the butterflies when I let them go, as some don't want to fly off right away. We also had a Black Swallowtail visit us one day. It was having problems flying (I think it maybe just hatched that day) so we brought it in and put it in the butterfly cage. Tried to let it go that evening but it didn't want to try to fly at all so we put it back in the cage and when we let it go the next day it flew off like normal.

I checked out the blog link. Never heard of the town Rural here in WI. LOL on the sign about nothing happening there. I have been to Olbrich Gardens too but it was raining that day so we only visited the butterfly house. Pretty cool.

Donna

[Farfalla]

I am new to finding eggs, too! I was just lucky enough this year to actually see 2 monarchs lay their eggs.
We have been raising monarchs in our classroom and can never seem to find just the "right" container. I wish someone out there would patent one! Maybe one of you guys! We finally settled on plastic "critter keepers" to raise the caterpillars. We then purchased a screened enclosure from Kidsgardening. After the caterpillars form chrsalides on the lids of the critterkeepers, we remove the lids and hang them in the screened enclosure.
But whatever you use ,just be sure that the butterflies have enough room to emerge and expand their wings fully and that they have a rough surface to climb up on should they should fall from their chrysalis case. The bottom of our screened enclosure is smooth so I put bridal veil at the bottom . They are usually ready to go about 6 hours after they emerge. I don't think it matters where you release them as long as it is warm enough for them to fly and a nectar source and milkweed are somewhere in the area. Send them this way.

~Hope

[Farfalla]

Here is what our setup at school looks like. Sorry it is not a better picture......But thanks Donna for the Photobucket tip!!!!




~Hope

[dzyg]

Good tip Hope, on the netting on the sides so they have something to crawl up on. I totally missed that. I work at home so I am always here when the butterflies are emerging and don't generally have something for them to crawl onto if they fall. This was the first year I had one fall too! I like the looks of the critter keeper tops, what does the rest look like? When my crysallis turn dark I put the lids from the containers on a homemade viewing place. LOL! It is an ice cream pail, with one side cut out and a paper plate (chinet) wiht a hole cut in it taped to the top. The butterflies can grab onto the chinet plates if they move around. This way I can totally watch the emergance. If I am going to be gone for a bit, I put a piece of netting over the opening. After about 4 hours they generally start crawling around so I put them in my butterfly cage. I hear you on the perfect rearing container though!

BTW, glad photobucket worked for you!

Donna

[Gwynne]

Thank you for the advice everyone. Although I found the four caterpillars on four different days, I did find them all in the same patch and believe they came from one butterfly or two butterflies that laid eggs at the same time. I found one on Thursday June 15th and he was tiny! I found the others on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday of the next week. Everyone was the same size as the others when I brought them indoors and they all formed chrysalises within 30 hours so I am guessing this is one group.

I am concerned because two of them are in a small cage and the second one formed his chrysalis an inch away from the first one. It looks like the first one may be ready to emerge soon. It has been nine days and the chrysalis is getting darker and I can see the outline of his body. I dont know what will happen if he knocks into the other chrysalis when he emerges. I had bought a larger cage but it was too late to move the two caterpillars by then. The third and fourth chrysalises are at least six inches apart. I will have to find something suitable in case anyone falls. I have put a stick in one of the cages. I was wondering if that would work.

I have been keeping the smaller cage in the aquarium when I am at work with the door propped open and a stick inside that one as well. Tonight I found another caterpillar! He is now occupying the aquarium and yes, there is a mesh lid. The only problem is it doesnt lift off but slides. I have been checking four clumps of milkweed all within walking distance. I found this guy in the same clump of milkweed as the other four. He looks a little lighter than the other guys, if I am not mistaken. He is bigger than the first caterpillar I found but smaller than the others were when I found them. I would say that he has at least 3 or 4 more days to go before forming his chrysalis.

Okay, now for some more questions! Is it okay to line his cage with paper towels to make it easier to clean and keep the leaves on them? His cage being so much bigger is going to make it harder for me to keep clean. I still havent found the perfect cage. I had a bug zoo when I was a little child. To me, that was the perfect cage, but I can not find anything like that. It was plastic and the bottom was mesh and came off. Perfect for cleaning and when all the chrysalises were formed, I could just take the bottom off altogether. My little cage has a side door. The hermit crab cage is all plastic but the lid pops in place and I dont know how to get the lid off without breaking the cage. I can open and close the lid, but would have liked to be able to take it off. The aquarium is all glass with a sliding lid.

I like the pictures of the chrysalises hanging from the lids. I am not sure where to find something like that though. I dont have any jars, as was suggested. This really has been a problem! I am going to have to reread how the material was attached to help a monarch if it has fallen when emerging. Do they usually emerge in the morning? I thought I read that. Also, when is the best time to find caterpillars? I have found mine all in the evening, but that is because I was only out in the day once. The other times I went to get the caterpillars fresh leaves at night after work and most times found another caterpillar! I have never found an egg, wouldnt know what one looked like if it bit me! Now that I am reading more, I am thinking the eggs might be too fragile for me to try to deal with, even if I found any. I am having enough problems trying to find adequate containers for the caterpillars.

Some of the milkweed doesnt look too healthy. The patch where I found everyone looks wilted and the pink flowers at the top arent in good shape. The largest patch looks the healthiest. In answer to what other types of insects I have found, I see a lot of beetles, some red insects that I dont know the name of, a couple of spiders, a couple of yellow ladybugs, some really small insects, and tonight, my first tick.

I am wondering why some of the milkweed looks healthier than others. We have had a lot of torrential downpours the last week and a half so I know that it isnt drought. In terms of the rain, there have been several unusually severe thunderstorms in a short period of time. I was surprised to find a caterpillar at all tonight with the type of weather we have had.

Also, I am wondering if the butterflies in Wisconsin lay their eggs earlier than the ones in Pennsylvania or if they lay eggs at the same time? I always thought they just sort of migrated, laying eggs in different states at different times. The more I am reading, the more I am finding out how much I dont know!

[Gwynne]

Okay, I am going to try this again, writing this in word so I can read everyone’s advice and comment on it instead of hitting reply and trying to remember what I read!

Scott, thank you for the advice. I don’t actually know what an earwig is. I will look it up. I have never found an egg. After reading how delicate they are, I am afraid to even try to raise a butterfly from an egg. Someone suggested putting a paper towel and damp leaves in a ziplock bag. I will have to reread that. If you left the bag open, wouldn’t the caterpillar crawl out once it hatched? If you closed the bag, how would it breath? So definitely not the easy process I had originally envisioned! And yes, I have taken lots of pictures of the caterpillars and chrysalises.

Donna, congratulations on so many butterflies! I cant believe the enormous amount of work you must have put into this! I will have to ask at the deli for some containers. Do you remove the lids once the chrysalis has formed? And if so, where do you put the lids? I searched in vain for a jar to put the first caterpillar in and just couldn’t find one! Does anyone know where to find plain mesh? I know I haven’t been that prepared, but after searching for years, I was not expecting to find any caterpillars. Now I am addicted! I don’t want to bring in caterpillars that I can not take care of however. If I had any idea I was going to find any this year, I would have gotten everything ready first!

Scott, what a beautiful picture! I will be looking at your wife’s blog to see your other pictures when I get done writing this. You say you took a chrysalis camping with you when it was eight days old? I hope he had a good time! Seriously, how long do they stay as a chrysalis? Several sites said 7 to 10 days, one said 10 to 14 days. Anyone know the norm? What can I look for to tell me my butterfly is about to emerge?

Hope, you are right next door to me! I am in Pennsylvania. I have not seen any monarchs this year but obviously the caterpillars came from somewhere. How fascinating to see one lay its eggs. Can you tell me how big the critter keepers are and how big your screened enclosure is? I don’t think I have room for a screened enclosure inside. Even if I can find these critter keepers, which seem great as they have removable lids, I am wondering where I would put the lids. The bridal veil sounds like a great idea.

I have wondered about moving my butterfly set up outside on my balcony, but am nervous for many reasons. What if a storm comes up when I am at work? Should they be left outside overnight? For now, everyone is in the kitchen. I have a fluorescent light near the sink which I keep on during daylight hours to try to stick with their natural pattern. After being indoors all this time, I am afraid that the shock of the heat might harm the chrysalises if I put the cages outside now. I have no idea if this fear has any merit to it. Of course, I will release them as butterflies, but am afraid the heat might shock their systems at this point.

The newest little guy is eating up a storm! All the others seemed to be very light eaters and I found them at all different stages. Speaking of which, someone mentioned this and I have forgotten what they said. Do the butterflies lay their eggs at the top or the bottom of the milkweed plants? I think I read they lay the eggs on the underside. The caterpillars I have found have been near the top of the milkweed. I don’t know if this is because they were easier to see near the top and I have missed ones closer to the ground, but thought I read they move upwards.

Thanks again everyone for their advice. If any one has the answers to any more of my numerous questions, please post or email me.

[Farfalla]

Gweynne,
Here is what the bottom of the critter keeper looks like. It is a just a little plastic tank that is sold in pet store or grocery stores as a hermit crab tank. ( I would never use it for hermies,though.. it is way too small.) It's perfect for caterpillars though.
And yep, papertoweling is the way to keep things clean. ( The kids in my class call cleaning the tanks "changing diapers". .I wrap the stems of milkweed in wet paper towels and cover them with saran wrap to keep things dry.

[Farfalla]

Donna,
Here is a picture of the rest of the enclosure.It was from Kids Gardening and kind of pricey but I got it with grant money. The bottom has plant trays .The way we initially used it was to keep milkweed plants right inside (You can see them in the pic) But it was too difficult to care for the plants and the cats at the same time. Like I said.. there is no perfect cage! But the lid hanging method seems to work fine. When the butterflies are ready to emerge we play some classical music and the kids and I lay down on the floor with pillows and look up under the lids.
It's the best we can do so far.
Thanks again for Photobucket tip. Where have I been?
~Hope

[Gwynne]

Thanks for the tip! Right now I have the little guy I found yesterday in the aquarium. I think I am going to have butterflies soon. The chrysalises have started turning black and you can see their wings. I think the next step is for the crysalises to become clear. They look a lot like the last picture on the post about finding chrysalises on milkweed. I would guess today or tomorrow they should emerge!

[Farfalla]

Today is the day ! Keep your eyes on them and I bet sometime before noon you will have butterflies. When they emerge they will be small, crumpled and fat! They will need to hang motionless,pump fluid into their wings.dry their wings &"zip" their proboscus together . The whole process may take up to 6 hours. Enjoy watching ,but give them their space so they can complete the process without being disturbed.
Congrats! Keep us posted.
~Hope

[MILW]

Nice cage! I'll start another thread so we can plan the best kind of enclosure to mass produce. I just took some shots of my bug cage, a peanut butter jar, and some eggs under an old plastic container.

Gwynne, the eggs are almost always on the bottom side of the leaf; I gently turn each leaf on a stalk to check. I've heard the females favor the younger tender leaves near the top, and I don't usually find eggs near the bottom of the plant... from about 1/3rd on up I'd say. Here's a photo of one egg, but no scale reference:

and here's one of a new hatchling:

When I find an egg, I either rip the leaf to take just a small section with the egg, or better yet, use a scissors to cut a little triangle. Try not to break the central rib of the leaf if you can.

The hatchlings will stay on the piece of leaf for several days, they will only crawl away if the leaf dries out, or when they are ready to shed their skins to become second instar.

Earwigs are dark brown, up to half inch long, and like to hide in cracks in the ground. They also like to nestle in the top baby leaves of the milkweed plants. Older ones have long "pincers" on their back end, I've heard they can give a painful pinch but never actually felt that!

Hmm, ok enough for now, the kids (homo sapiens that is!) are begging for a bit of attention-

oops- mesh fabric, try a sewing store, or WalMart; craft shops...
cheers- Scott

[Gwynne]

Hope, you said noon, and as soon as I read that, I checked the time. It is 11:46. I have been checking all morning. Anyway, I ran into the kitchen and I have a butterfly! He or she is the first one that formed a chrysalis. The next chrysalis formed 24 hours later and the next two formed within the following eight hours when I was at work. They were dry when I got home.

Anyway, the one that just emerged is in the small container and I was really having a hard time seeing its progress because this is mesh on two sides, blue plastic on one side, and clear plastic on the other.

[dzyg]

Hi Gwynne! I am glad we could all help you out! When I collected eggs in May and since then I take the whole leaf (be careful not to touch the egg) and put it in a ziplock bag with a damp paper towel. You do shut the bag, I was concerned about air at first too but don't worry the cats do fine and can actually stay in there for quite some time! I usually move them out when they are about 1/2- 3/4 inch long. Then I move them to a container. Oh and I put the ziplock bags flat on a thick piece of cardboard so I can move them around without actually moving the bag. I just leave the lids on the jars after the crysallis are formed, I do clean the container first though and put fresh paper towel down. I always have paper towel on the bottom of the containers. After doing this and recording times for a couple years I have found that the cats I keep in the house are in the crysallis exactly 10 days. When they turn dark I put them onto one of my homemeade viewing stations (ice cream pail, described above) so I can watch the butterfly emerge the next morning. Well some of them get put on there, I had one day that I had 27 butterflies hatch so some of them had to stay in the containers. They do mostly emerge before noon but sometimes you will get a late one too. Oh and I have found eggs both on top and underneath the milkweed leaves, you just need to know what to look for. The eggs are about the size of the D on a penny and are kinda an oval sitting on one end. If you are looking on the really young small milkweed they are usually on some of the smallest leaves at the very top and they are sometimes right on top. I actually really enjoyed it this year seeing the Monarchs go all the way from egg to butterfly. I just had three butterflies hatch this morning so that makes 109, I think only about 10 of these were taken in as cats, the rest were all eggs, raised in the ziplock bags. I am actually excited as this year I have found four crysallis outside in my flowerbeds. I forgot to mark the days down when they were formed, I actually saw the cats in the J outside on some Lilly leaves and one on my Hosta. I think two of them may be emerging tomorrow. They seem to be taking longer outside though, not sure if it is the changing weather vs constant in the house or if I am just being impatient. LOL! Sounds like you may have butterflies this morning, hope you get to see them emerge!!

Donna

[Gwynne]

Okay he or she, I am just going to say she, is hanging onto the chrysalis. She is really not doing anything other than looking beautiful! Not really pumping her wings. I had put a paper towel on the bottom of the cage in case she fell as that is a rougher surface than the plastic. I notice something that almost looks like a little blood stain on the paper towel. She doesnt have too much room to spread her wings because of the chrysalis behind her. Well, she probably doesnt know it is there. I dont know if that will get knocked down and if it can be attached somewhere if it does. I dont know what I should do now. The container is small, but she is hanging onto the chrysalis so I dont want to disturb her by putting her in the aquarium. I imagine I would have to wait several hours to move her. I did gently turn the cage and open the door so I could take some pictures, but dont want to disturb her anymore than that. Is there anything I should be watching for? I dont know if the others will emerge today or not. I could not really monitor her progress because of how hard it was to see into the cage. There is going to be a problem if the one right next to her emerges now! Not enough room! That one made its chryalis exactly 24 hours later. She looks perfectly formed! Could she have already dried? It seems to soon.

[Gwynne]

I just saw one of the butterflies emerge. She is so tiny! She is in the larger cage, one that made its chrysalis over 24 hours after the first one. She seems to be pumping her wings. The first one that emerged still isnt doing anything, but the wings seem so large already. I thought it took about an hour to pump blood into them, but she or maybe he already has such large wings.

[dzyg]

Congrats on your butterfly! If the other crysallis isn't black yet, don't worry it probably won't hatch today. If it is green and you can see the butterfly through it, it will probably emerge tomorrow. They don't normally flutter their wings until they are dry, about 2-3 hours after emerging. I don't bother them until the start moving around on their own. Not sure if you saw her emerge or not but when they first emerge their wings are tiny (smaller than the body) and their body is huge. The body is full of fluid that is slowly pumped into the wings and expands them. Once the wings are expanded with the fluid then they just hang for them to dry. You may see it slowly move them out a bit in the drying process. Usually after about 4 hours or longer if it isn't moving around yet, I will put my finger between the crysallis and thier legs and have them grab onto my finger and then I move them to the butterfly cage. I made it out of the large embroidery hoops and bridal veil netting. I see your new post, as I was typing this, lol! Glad you got to see one. It doesn't take long at all for them to pump the fluid into their wings, just takes awhile to dry. You don't want to touch the wings when they are wet.

btw, I had two cyrallis very close together this year only about an inch apart. They hatched within probably 20 min of each other and the one crawled on top of the other one as it bumped it when it emerged. I managed to get on it onto my finger but got the other one as well, so I was stuck with two butterflied on a finger of each hand. My 6yr old dd had to help me out, but not until after I held still while the one butterfly expanded her wings, it was quite the ordeal! Both butterflies were fine though, thankfully.

Oh and yes they do expel some of the fluid when the butterfly is expanding its wings which is usually a bloody color. They will also expell lots of clear stuff later as they dry.

Donna

[Gwynne]

The second one to emerge is now a lot bigger. For some reason, I expected to see the wings pumping vigorously as the fluid was pushed into her body. She is making small movements. I guess I missed all that with the first butterfly and she was already was at full size when I saw her. The first one is moving a little, but seems to be just hanging out to dry. The other two chrysalises are definitely black. I wanted to take a nap, but don’t want to do anything until the one that is too close to the first one emerges and I can make sure it is okay. When you had two on your finger, where did you put them? At this point, the wings are full on the first one and probably on the second one. Is that the crucial part, making sure the wings are full? I know that the wings being dry is important, just want to know what to do if one bumps the other in the smaller cage! Now that the wings are full, is it essential to still be upside down for the rest of the drying process in the event someone knocks someone else and has to be helped?

[MILW]

Yes, congratulations! You shouldn't worry about the fluid- unless it is green - the other liquid they expel (meconium) is reddish brown, it is the old gut contents and waste products from the chrysalis. If a wing vein gets torn, you'll see light greenish drops, that is bad news but it sounds like yours are alright.

That must have tickled, Donna! Good thing you had a little helper

- Scott

[Gwynne]

Butterfly three, or chrysalis two, has safely emerged. I was able to take lots of pictures of her emerging. I even took a little video with my camera, but have never done that before and have no idea how to download it. Butterfly one is hanging onto her chrysalis. Is it called something different once the butterfly emerges? Butterfly two is also hanging onto her chrysalis. Butterfly three is hanging onto the mesh in the cage. Butterfly one did flap her wings a couple of times when butterfly three was pumping fluid into her wings. Sorry if some of this terminology is incorrect. I had to carefully remove the paper towel at the bottom of the cage as butterfly three was too close to hitting it when she was expanding her wings as she made her chrysalis a little lower down and isnt even holding onto that, but rather the mesh siding. I dont think chrysalis four is quite ready to come out yet.

It is supposed to go up to 90 degrees today. It is 1:15 now and I was out at 9:30 and it was already hot. I dont want to release anyone in the heat. I have two different things about when they are ready to be released. One is that they are ready in an hour after they emerge. Or is that after they dry? The other is it takes six hours. Which is correct? I obviously will not release anyone until it cools down. How late is too late in the day? I could release them in the morning, but wouldnt be around to make sure they get off safely. Also, the butterflies in the small cage arent going to have room to fly around. I want to move them to the aquarium at some point and move the caterpillar into their habitat as it does seem adequate for one. I dont want to move the butterflies too soon, but I dont want to wait too long and have them flying into each other. Any advice? Thanks all! This has been an exciting morning!

[dzyg]

First thing that came to mind was to tell dd to get a popsicle stick which we got one to crawl onto then I put it over the top of a jar so the butterfly hung down inside it. Worked perfectly.

Hey Scott, what would happen if a wing vein got torn and you saw the greenish fluid? Just curious.

Donna

[dzyg]

I would say if you have an aquarium where they can hang from the top put them in there after about three - four hours. If you release them today do it late afternoon, early evening. They will find a tree or something to fly to and just hang. The butterflies really don't fly around much the first day they emerge, they pretty much just hang that first day and they don't need to eat until the day after. If you keep them until tomorrow make sure your container does have enough room for them to fly a bit. My butterfly cage is about a foot across and about four feet long, the butterflies always go right to the top though and hang there. Good luck! Any more questions, just let us know!!

Donna

[Gwynne]

Yes, they can hang upside down from the aquarium. I just am unsure the best way to transfer them. I have a stick that they could walk onto. Would they then grab ahold of the lid? I dont want to touch the butterflies themselves.

[dzyg]

When I transfer them I just put my finger in between the butterflies body and the crysallis shell and gently move it down a bit so they have to let go of the crysallis and grab onto my finger. I keep them hanging upside down when doing so unless they want to crawl the onto my hand. Getting them to grab onto something else is sometimes easy and sometimes hard. Just put your finger (or stick) against what you want them to grab onto, feet first and hopefully they will grab on, then slowly move whatever they are hanging onto away and they will let go with the other feet. Good luck!

Donna

[Farfalla]

Just checking in to see how things were going. Now I am curious about torn wing veins,too. What are the ramifications and how does that happen?

~Hope

[MILW]

Hey Scott, what would happen if a wing vein got torn and you saw the greenish fluid? Just curious.
Donna

That section of wing wouldn't inflate and flatten out, it would just harden in the curled up rumpled position. Then the butterfly wouldn't be able to fly, unfortunately.

Gwynne, you shouldn't be afraid to let them crawl onto your finger- once the wings are hard, you can't hurt them easily... *unless you do what I once did, I left a male on a plant, and he fluttered to the ground while I was away. I came back, sat down on the ground and started looking for him. "Hm, he mus t have flown away!" unfortunately. We still have his body, I have to take him out and tell the story to the kids, every couple of months!

[Gwynne]

Okay, butterfly number one and three have been transferred. I stupidly opened the container with butterfly number two in it. I wanted to take some pictures because I dont know how to tell the sex and I figured I would either email them to someone or have pictures for when I do know how to tell. Yes, I have seen pictures of a girl and boy together and I still cant tell the difference! Why I didnt wait to open the lid is beyond me. This is the lid that you cant lift off so it was sitting on an angle. Anyway, she started flapping her wings which caused her to fall. She got on my finger and I put her back at the top of the cage and she is there now. I put a stick in the cage for butterfly number two and she grabbed it. I didnt realize that you have to keep them upside down while moving them and I went to put her in the aquarium. She was trying to flap her wings too. I got her onto the lid of the aquarium. This has a lid that you can not take off, but rather have to pull out. I had to turn the lid upside down, put her on and turn her back over. I think I managed to drop her too during the process. I thought about leaving butterfly one alone, but wanted her to have room to spread her wings and moved her to the aquarium too.

I debated about putting the caterpillar in the smaller cage but havent done so yet and dont want to disturb the butterflies again going in to get the caterpillar. I hope caterpillars can climb glass. If they cant, please someone let me know! The caterpillar is not that large and probably isnt ready to pupate yet. I have no idea how to tell about instars. All and all, I feel like an idiot because everyone told me the proper way to proceed and I still made mistakes. Right now, the three butterflies are hanging onto the lids of their respective abodes. I am glad that the wings were fully formed before I started dropping the poor things, but am concerned if I damaged them. They are all hanging out to dry. I dont know what is going on with the fourth chrysalis. It doesnt quite look ready to emerge.

I also am unsure whether to release the butterfles tonight or tomorrow. How will I know when they are ready? Will they start flying around their cages? We have a possibility of a severe thunderstorm today so that is one thing that will effect my decision. If I do let them go tonight, I can see that they get off safely. I am rushed in the morning and wouldnt have that much time to spend with them. When are there more predators out, early evening or morning? Would it be better just to take them back to the patch of milkweed I found them in? Or would they be at the mercy of predators there too. If I release them from my balcony this evening, I could stay with them and make sure no birds come around. I just dont know what to do. I guess I will wait and see about the weather and see what everyone thinks is the best. Oh, and someone, please design the perfect container! All three of mine have drawbacks and advantages.

[dzyg]

Thanks for the info Scott.

As per your accident with the Monarch we had one too. Last year we were letting a male go and I didn't realize it was only 63 outside and breezy. It tried to fly off my dd's finger and it fluttered to the deck, startled my dd and she stepped on him. He wasn't smooshed, no oozing of anything but you could tell it wasn't good. We put him back in our butterfly cage but he was dead in the morning. He is now in a shadow box on my computer desk. DD was devistated and it took her awhile to hold a butterfly again, this year however she is a great helper.

Note to those who don't know: Monarchs cannot fly in temps under 60 degrees, or sometimes even close to that if there is a cool breeze.

Donna

[dzyg]

I am sure your butterflies are all fine. You don't neccessarily have to keep them upside down when transferring them, just depends how long it has been since they emerged. In 3-4 hours they are fine to move and let crawl around on your hand, did they try to fly when you dropped them? I am sure they are fine. Once a Monarchs wings are dry they are quite tough.

Yes catipillars can climb glass, plastics pretty much whatever you give them they can climb. It will be fine.

If it is raining or storming I never let them go until all has passed. If there are thunderstorms forecasted the day they emerge I keep them until the next day. I sometimes just open the window by the butterfly cage and let them fly out there. I would say you can let them go in the morning without a problem at your house. They will look for flowers to feed on. They will be ready to go tomorrow too so make sure you don't let them go in your house by mistake or you may have a hard time catching them. LOL! Good luck!! Yes, they will let you know when they are ready, they get much more active.

Donna

[MILW]

Here's my new baby! Just hatched about 15 minutes ago- the left is the egg about an hour ago- you can see it's head inside the egg. Now it's eating the eggshell; next some yummy leaf!


cheers- Scott

(ps I started a Frapprmap to show the Waystation locations, but no-one else has added a marker yet! )

[Gwynne]

Oh, what a cute picture, Scott! Donna, there are storms forecast all week. First they were saying a possibility of strong storms this afternoon. We didnt have any. Now they are saying a possibility tonight. And tomorrow and all week. They are supposed to be isolated tomorrow, at least.

I did take a nap for two hours. When I checked on the butterflies, one was on the bottom of the aquariuim. I didnt know if she was supposed to be upside down so I opened the lid to help her. The other two tried to fly and ended up on the bottom. They were making little flying attempts. I have seen at least two and possibly all three attempt to fly. Of course they are in an aquarium so I cant tell if they can or not!

How do I release them? I have nothing to put the lid of the cage on. I dont think they can fly far. Should I have them attach to the screen on my windows outside and see what they do from there? Or should I leave them upside an have the lid half on, half off? I am afraid they will end up on the bottom of the cage. I dont know what positiion they need to be in when I release them. If I keep them overnight, will they stay hanging on to the top of the cage or rest at the bottom? Do I need to keep helping them up every time they are on the bottom of the cage still? It has been 6 1/2 hours since the first emerged and about 5 hours since the third emerged but of course I cant tell them apart at this point as all are in the aquarium. So basically I need to know what position and type of material to put them on to release them. Thanks, guys!

[MILW]

Do you have any tall flowers, or low trees outside your house? I like to carry the container outside to right beside the plant; get them on one finger and then hold them right up to a leaf, flower or twig. If the leaf or twig touches their front legs, they will step forward and off your finger.

Also, I'll try to find an image of the males hindwings- that is how you can tell the sexes apart- the males have a black spot on a hindwing vein, a "scent pouch".

good luck!
-Scott

[Gwynne]

Scott, I dont have anything like that right below my condo. There are some bushes right outside the door, I think. The condo has trimmed some of the bushes recently and I am not positive that they are there. You know how sometimes you will pass something and not really be looking? If I do release them from my balcony and they cant fly they will fall and wind up either on the cement or in the person's garden below me. I wonder if I can release them from there. The condos downstairs have wood gates around their balconies that are about eight feet high. Some people have plants and flowers. The door would have to be left open or the butterflies would have to fly over the fences. I feel like such a moron, not knowing what to do! The other possibility is taking them back where I found them which is very close by, but next to a busy highway. But at least they would already be by a food source.

[Farfalla]

Hi Gwynne,
Sounds like your butterflies are just fine. Don't worry about where or how to release them..Just let them go and when they feel the sun on their bodies they will know what to do!

Scott,
GREAT baby pics!!! As soon as I get my waystation certificate in the mail I'll post my marker for sure! The map is an awesome idea

~Hope

[Gwynne]

Thanks everyone for your support. The storm fizzled out, never really came through. I am thinking it might be too late now to release them as it is 8:45 so I will wait till the morning. I just hope they are okay till then!

[dzyg]

Good luck letting them go Gwynne, it is tough when there are thunderstorms in the area.

Here is a pic I took of a female: Note thicker veins


Here is one of a male: Note black dots (scent pouches) on both lower wings and thinner veins


And just for the heck of it I have a pic of my very full butterfly cage (or the top part at least). There are around 20 butterflies in there when I took this.


Donna

[Farfalla]

Love the hoop house, Donna! What a GREAT idea.Shhh.. Don't tell my DH because I made him buy me an open air screen habitat in the pet store.( It was made for lizards)Even though I am not working at school this summer.. I am still raising Monarchs at home.
I really, REALLY need to get a new digital camera ,though. Your photos are just beautiful. My 12 year old QVC clunker has seen much better days.lol!
~Hope

[Gwynne]

I did take lots and lots of pictures! Like almost 100 and a short video. Most of the picture are when the butterflies just emerged and their wings were not open. I have very few with the wings open. I can tell from looking at the pictures that I have at least one boy and one girl. I have lost track long ago of who is butterfly number 1, 2, and 3. I did take some pictures of the one where I said I opened the lid too early and she fell. The interesting thing is I see no black dots but the markings look more like the male than the female. From your picture, it looks like the female has not only thicker veins, but lots more veins. Is that correct or is that just the angle from which you took the picture of the boy? By the way, all your pictures are quite beautiful! I wish I knew how to post some here.

[Gwynne]

It is 11:20 PM and I turned off the lights in the kitchen an hour ago so the butterflies could get some rest. After all, it has been a busy day for them! I did put my finger out to the one in the corner and he, yes he, flapped his wings. Before I could check the other two, I happened to glance over at the last container, and guess who had emerged! I didnt think she would till tomorrow. I am going to try to check the sexes of the other two in the aquarium. I believe at least one of them is a girl. The boy keeps sticking his tongue out, but doesnt seem interested in the pink flower. I have it a couple of inches from him. He is the one I have been worried about.

[dzyg]

Gwynn, the male butterfly in the picture has his upper wings held down lower than the female in the picture. Both the male and female have the same veining patterns, the females are just thicker and the males have the black dots.

Let us know how it went when you let them go!

Hope, thanks for the comment on my pics. LOL on your open air screen habitat. The hoop idea just came to me one day, dh helped me get it together, I have one set of big hoops on top and one big set near the bottom with the netting secured inbetween each set of hoops. I tied a hanger on the top and the bottom I just use a twist tie to shut. I either put them in and out through the bottom or where the sides come together. It works really well.

Donna

[Gwynne]

Well, today was the big day! I dont know if I wrote that that silly fourth butterfly emerged about 11:00 PM last night! He got things a little backwards. I had already turned the kitchen lights out so that the butterflies would settle down. But I didnt want him in the dark since he had to dry his wings. He was already had full size. So I put him in the bathroom with the light one. I checked on him at 2:00 AM and he was at the bottom of the cage. I wanted to put him back on his chrysalis, he wanted to fly off! I did get him back to the top, but it was evident that he had other ideas and tried to fly in the little hermit crab enclosure. I wasnt even opening the aqaurium screen and disturbing everyone else! About 7:30 this morning, I went down to my neighbor's garden, where I had decided to release the monarchs. I brought down butterfly number four first as he was so active. I took off the lid and he flew right off! I went back and got the aquarium, lifted the top off a bit and one butterfly flew off and out of site. I nudged another one and that one too took off. I was left with one female who didnt want to go anywhere. I put her on some flowers. Here is where I made another mistake. I should have just left and let her take her time. I was hoping to get some pictures of her with her wings open and saw that if I touched her foot, she would open her wings. She would only do that once and I wasnt able to get any good pictures of her with her wings open. I also tried lifted her on my finger hoping she would fly off. I put her back on the flower and tried again to get some pictures. I guess she had enough of that because she flew up and landed...on my balcony! Then she flew to the roof. I dont know where she went from there. I was kicking myself for not having left her alone, though. I am so afraid she became someone's breakfast because I didnt give her enough time to feel comfortable flying. I have no idea why everyone else took right off. As I said, the last one out was the first one released. Do you guys think she will be okay? I feel so bad! I was able to find one caterpillar last week, he was medium size. He is huge now! I am sure it wont be long before he is ready to make his chrysalis. I have him in the aquarium because he seems to enjoy having so much space. I am not sure if that is where I want him to form his chrysalis, however. Can any one point me in the direction of information about instars? And thank you so much everyone for your help!

[Farfalla]

Glad all went well,Gwynne! And don't worry about that female.She knows just what she is doing. She will live the life of a free butterfly. For her, it doesn't get better than that.

[John Beaulieu]

Scott

I tried that map thing several times... I took forever to get it to work as it did not seem to like my address. But in the end no map shows up for me. It must require a certain compatability or memory amount? Maybe others have tried and hit the same problem.

John - on an old Mac

[Pat in PA]

Tried it also; didn't work. After they've collected up your personal info, you can click "add me" on the map but nothing happens. Also I note that there's a button at the bottom of the map that says "publish this map to MySpace" -- something I'm not crazy about.
Pat

[Gwynne]

Donna, I know I had at least one boy and one girl. I can tell from pictures. There was one who I think was a boy, but I am not certain. He would only keep his wings open briefly, and I thought I saw two dots, but just wasnt 100% certain. It is easier to tell on a picture where you have captured the image!

[dzyg]

Gwynne, once you get used to doing this you will be able to tell the sex as they are emerging from or hanging from the crysallis. Even with the butterflies wings closed you can tell from the bottom wings if it is a boy or girl. Today is the first day that we don't have any butterflies hatching after 17 straight days of new butterflies. There will be one hatching outside though, it is on some lily leaves. Last time I checked it hadn't done anything yet. Right now I only have five crysallis and 10 cats of various sizes in the house.

Donna