Over 6 hrs, Butterfly still stuck in chrysalis

[dancetta]

My small chrysalis opened today but the butterfly is still only 1/2 way out and I don't know what to do. It seems like the wings are drying in that position, still mostly folded. Help!

[dancetta]

AFter 8 hours I finally decided to help it out of the chrysalis. It seems the backend was still wet and slightly stuck inside. The wings have dried folded looking like angel wings. I gave it a Q-tip to hang from and some liquid dripped out the back end. However, there seems to not be enough strength or wing movement. The back legs are restricted by the wings, and very weak. The front legs seem ok but are not strong enough to hold it off it's face. Any suggestions as to what to do? On it's own, it tends to lean on it's face, so I'm constructing a toothpick brace to help hold it up.

[Jim]

If these aren't the same caterpillars that were overheated (which could be the cause of this weakened condition) then another thing to consider is disease/parasitism. Ophryocystis elektroscirrha is a protozoan parasite that infects monarchs. Heavily infected monarch adults are typically too weak to cling to their pupal case (or emerge at all sometimes) and properly inflate their wings.

If you have a 30-40x microscope handy you can test "Martin" for these spores pretty easily (note: O.e. is not harmful to humans):

How to test for parasites in your monarchs

Alternatively, you can participate in "Project MonarchHealth" and send in a sample to be analyzed for you.

That site has lots of great information and photos - be sure to check it out!

Whether or not you determine that your monarch is infected, it is always a good idea to sterilize all equipment before reuse. Good Luck!

[dancetta]

Thanks for the great site! I will be looking for a microscope.
Yes, "Martin" was my one survivor of the overheated cats. After not eating for one week, he suddenly awoke and started crawling but did not eat, so I put him in with another cat to motivate his eating and it did just that. He was a small chrysalis, also.

Sadly, I buried "Martin" this morning in my brand new butterfly garden where I have planted 5 giant milkweed plants (known as crown flower in Hawaii) and some nectaring plants. Although, it will take a couple of months to get going, it will be a great habitat for future generations.

I also will be sending in samples to the website you gave me so we will know what's happening to the monarchs in Hawaii. Thanks, again!

[Jim]

brand new butterfly garden where I have planted 5 giant milkweed plants (known as crown flower in Hawaii) and some nectaring plants. Although, it will take a couple of months to get going, it will be a great habitat for future generations.

Wonderful! There's still a chance for you to be our first official Monarch Waystation in Hawaii:

Monarch Waystation Program

We have about 500 sites in the U.S., Canada, Virgin Islands, and The Bahamas so far and counting:

Monarch Waystation Registry

[monarchmama]

Just read about this tonight from another source, and found it both informative and helpful.
I was going to post the link here at MW Forums, but did a search first and found that Jim posted it in March.

Instead of starting new thread, I am just bringing this thread forward again for anyone else like me who missed it the first time, and for anyone out there that might want to learn more about how to identify OE on mature monarchs and on chrysalis, and how to disinfect to protect other monarchs you are raising.

[Gwynne]

I have been having a rough time with a bunch of my butterflies. Some emerged severely deformed. Some looked fine but couldnt fly. I had three that were deformed emerge last Sunday. Two I tried to 'help' out. One was able to grab onto my hand and then onto a screen for an hour. He eventually fell and didnt dry just right. He was the least deformed of them all. I still have him and the last couple of days have been putting him outside in the little garden I just made. Another one from last Sunday was so deformed there was nothing I could do to help him. He couldnt grip my hand or anything. The third one emerged later that day when I wasnt around. She didnt have the strength to shed her chrysalis but did have the strength to hang on to the screen. I had another deformed one emerge when I wasnt home.

Today I had three emerge. They all must have fallen because two were climbing up the side of the castle when I found them. They did fine, though one was small. They were both boys. I released them today. The other one fell upon emerging and I was right there to 'help' her. Only I couldnt get her to cling to anything. She is horribly deformed. Should I be offering my assistance or should I let them work it out for themselves? The two I didnt touch were fine. On the other hand I had two that emerged when I wasnt around that were deformed. It is hard for me to know when I should be helping and when I should be standing back. Does this sound like OE?

Also, I had one that I was going to release today. He eclosed yesterday and I kept him overnight just because the temperatures were going into the 50's and I didnt know if it was safe to release him. When I went to release him this morning, he was dead. Very upsetting and I dont know how or why this happened.

They have been raised in various containers so it cant be that. I clean the containers twice a day and feed them twice a day unless they have a lot of food left. I dont know if I am doing something horribly wrong or if I brought in a bunch of eggs from a diseased butterfly. There have been a lot of others things going wrong including the ones that had brown spots. Turned out a tachinid fly had gotten them. The two I released today were the first two healthy ones I have had in a long time and even one of them was small.

[ohiomonarchmama]

Well, it was very interesting to check out the monarch health website...I have a "hypothesis" so to speak, that I'd like an opinion on regarding the OE incidence after checking out the link http://blackbear.ecology.uga.edu/altize ... /index.htm
The link shows a map with an OE incidence of <8% in the largest portions of the US, but around 85%!!! for the tip of Florida. I am suspecting that all the problems I am experiencing this year might be related to FLA butterflies that were purchased for a release in my town (I know for sure they were from FLA because it was in a news article). It was a very nice idea, children who were in a grief support group each got to release one at a gathering at our town gazebo, but isn't there a way we can ban shipments from FLA if they have this problem, or at least a high liklihood of it? I would think there would be certain regulations after some of the other problems we've had of spreading of illnesses and also other pests (such as ash borer that our area is dealing with and asking no wood be transported to other counties) or even weed problems that have crossed state borders, etc. Under the circumstances, wouldn't it be wise to try to keep the FLA butterflies in FLA, or at least not contribute knowingly to their "spread" to other areas? Jim and other gurus, what do you think? (Also, if you are able and prefer to move this to another forum, feel free...I put it here just because this is where I found the link on OE info) ....."OHmama" for short!

[ohiomonarchmama]

Gwynne:

I can relate to your frustration and sadness. We are all doing this because we love these beautiful creatures. I had a week like that also, thinking I maybe should give it up, but things have been going much better with the last batch I raised from eggs...I hope things will improve for you. It seems as if they must either have weak legs and something wrong, or maybe what they are trying to cling to is not a very good surface. I'm sorry if I missed what type of emergence container you are using, but I strongly recommend something with screen or netting. Plastic and glass are too slippery. Since they seem to be falling, you might try the emergence chamber Jim uses...the chyrsalis lays down (after totally dry) and when they hatch out, they climb up the nylon screening that is inside a clear plastic cup (4 in or more tall).Try to be sure the edges are smooth in case they are flapping their wings before you get to them.

I have had a variety of problems, but usually the deformed butterfly is due to not being able to hang so the wings form correctly. Somebody mentioned using a Q-tip with a roughed up surface for the poor cat who couldn't get his cremaster into the silk pad...has anybody tried a cotton ball on a hanging clothespin for a butterfly having trouble hanging on? I might worry about it's feet getting stuck in the fibers, but if it can't hang, it won't be right anyway and might be worth trying (wetting it might help?). Or if something is really wrong with it, I guess it's nature's way of not passing that trait along. Just remember that the ones that did survive might have been eaten by an ant or earwig if you hadn't rescued them, so you at least saved some!

Where in the country do you live? I wonder if there have been any FLA releases in your area? (or do you live in the sunny south?) I am just new learning about OE and have not tested any of my "failures" for spores, but may now that I know what to do. I hope things will improve for you! Take care! ..."OHmama"

[Gwynne]

Very interesting and scary stuff written there.

[Farfalla]

Prior to finding and raising eggs,our school would purchase larva from various places in Florida. Looking back on it now....A lot of those butterflies always seemed to be weak and unwilling to fly. When we had a few with motled black chrysalises..we reasearched it and realised we were dealing with OE. (Even though the breeders said the "sprayed their eggs") The scary part about that disease is that the butterflies can seem normal in most ways.. and can go on to breed and infect the local population..That Monarch Health link is great! We do have a microscope at school..... I'll have to try it in September.

I would agree with your theory OHmomma...That it could be possible that some of the butterflies released for the grief group could have been diseased. It would have been so much more meaningful and life affirming to afford the children the opportunity to raise and release their "own" Monarchs!

[ohiomonarchmama]

A good thought about having each child raise his own, but I have to admit I was holding my breath when I let my young niece and nephew have their own cats to raise (they had a milkweed source)...luckily, both went through the stages as expected... but ESPECIALLY with the poor little ones who've already had to deal with grief, I don't think I could stand it if we had a failure. I may contact the group and tell them about my theory and if I have butterflies at the time they plan their release, I would give them mine OR at least suggest getting them someplace other than Florida. (sorry if I'm offending any Florida people...not my intent, but I think this might be worth checking into further to prevent it's spread...any comments from others?)

[Gwynne]

I am sorry that I missed your question about where I am from. I live 25 miles northwest of philly. I am in the suburbs. I dont know of any Florida releases, but who knows?

I had another upsetting experience today. I had two more I was expecting to emerge. I was taking pictures of a caterpillar with black on him, maybe someone took a bite out of him? Anyway, suddenly I hear plop! Another one had fallen out of his chrysalis. Despite deciding yesterday that I was doing more harm than good in helping them when they had fallen, I forced my assistance on the poor thing. I was able to wait three minutes but couldnt stand seeing her floundering on her back. She, too, is horribly deformed. I feel so guilty. I should have learned my lesson yesterday when two were fine without me and the one I helped was deformed. I just couldnt stand to see her struggling.

Luckily for the second one, I was in another room when she eclosed. She must have fallen as well because I saw her climbing up the side with the zippered door. I could only watch the first one flounder helplessly as the second one was climbing up the zippered door and I couldnt risk her falling. She did fall but her wings were already pumped. She did seem awfully small. I checked on her several times. At 2:30 PM, I found her at the top of the top of the cage so I decided to relelase her. She looked quite large then. I did have to bring her in for the night after 6:00 PM as shes still hadnt flown off. I will try again tomorrow. I could really write a book here, a tragedy that is.

I have as many as 7 that may eclose tomorrow. Luckily for them, I will be working and unable to offer help. Maybe they will survive.

I feel enormous guilt for the ones I should have left alone and the one I didnt release that died overnight the other day. I feel I am doing everything all wrong.

I do remember finding 20 eggs in one patch. I dont know if it is the eggs or me!

I did finally find a product I like, the monarch castle. It has one side to look through and three side as well as the top and bottom are mesh. I started having my problems before I got this castle but am hoping that I will have better luck with the caterpillars that are younger. Only some of those 20 eggs have hatched so if it is a bad case of eggs, I will still be having a couple more days of problems. If it is me, well, I dont even want to think about that.

[Farfalla]

Gwynne,
I am sorry you are having so many problems.It seems like a disease outbreak. It seems unlikely that there is anything that you could possibly be doing that would make your butterflies so weak! I think there was a thread about how to control an outbreak. I remember Jim suggested a certain product to clean out all the containers.I'll have to look for it.

OHmomma,
I know what you are saying ... I raise Monarchs with the preschoolers in my class. They get to experience the cycle of life ..but that also sometimes includes life's end. You are right,though... it may be more difficult with little ones who have already been through so much.....
.
Maybe you could suggest that the grief group create a waystation. Working the soil and planting flowers is wonderful therapy.....and they will certainly be affirming life as they create an oasis for themselves & butterflies.

[Gwynne]

Well, I am beginning to take it personal like! And I feel so badly for the butterflies I maimed by not knowing better.

I thought I had seven that might emerge tomorrow. Looking at my records it is four.

I did get twenty eggs from one stop. I remember thinking this is ridiculous and I stopped at 20. I believe these might be part of the 20. Perhaps the mother had OE? Or perhaps I am doing something wrong.

And that #$%#$%#$ tachinid fly, destroying the first bunch I brought in as tiny caterpillars.