should I cut down all of my milkweed -aphids & other pests

[blazing star]

He posts a huge tent of monarchs and then declares that large monarch breeders use his toxic killing compounds. How does this picture prove his statement? It doesn't.

In a post above I posted a huge tent of MILKWEED (not monarchs) and I stated that the large monarch breeder who owns that tent uses Malathion on the milkweed to control aphids. The reason I know this is true is because the breeder in question had me come over to his farm to advise him on how to control the aphids.

Paul, Ignoring the remainder of your above post, I can now easily discount anything you say concerning GMO crops and toxins that kill monarchs.

I had always provided you with a glimmering of a shadow of a doubt as I wasn't certain that you profited from the demise of the monarch (and of other beneficial insects) but now that it's clear to me that you do profit from this activity, I can now simply discount anything you have to say about that matter and not even have to spend energy debunking and debating your faulty logic. You spin. Now I see why.

[Paul Cherubini]

He posts a huge tent of monarchs and then declares that large monarch breeders use his toxic killing compounds.

Malathion is not something the butterfly breeders buy from me so I do not profit from it. They buy Malathion from their local Walmart http://www.walmart.com/ip/Spectracide-M ... t/16630882 and similar retail garden center type stores: They can even buy it online:
http://www.amazon.com/Ortho-0165210-Mal ... 268&sr=8-1

Similarly, breeders who wish to use Roundup herbicide to help grow patches of milkweed from seed (Roundup can be used to kill weeds that would otherwise shade and crowd out the slow growing milkweed seedlings) can buy it at retail stores and online. http://www.amazon.com/Roundup-5100710-K ... 522&sr=1-2

In my own monarch butterfly garden I have an annual problem with two spotted spider mites than can defoliate and even kill my butterfly bushes and milkweed. This spray which I buy online solves the mite problem: http://growerssolution.com/page/GS/PROD/70-1180

[deemiller]

I worried about aphids on milkweed in previous years, but reasoned that just about anything I might do to remove/kill them potentially affects the monarchs. The milkweed is part of a mixed planting in a five-year-old organically managed perennial border. Two observations as the border matured - the aphids did not interfere with the monarchs and beneficial insects kept the aphids in check. Further, monarchs and aphids are just a tiny slice of the biosphere. Chemicals might be helpful for managing monarchs intensively as a monoculture, but pesticides will reduce the rest of the rich biotic mix that supports a healthy environment for plants and insects.

I suggest keeping the milkweed healthy, encouraging beneficials, and skipping the pesticides.

[Paul Cherubini]

beneficial insects kept the aphids in check.

Sometimes aphids get wildly out of control. So if you don't spray them with insecticide, this is what can happen:

[Mona Miller]

This is what can happen when the department of transportation comes along and sprays the roadsides with herbicides. I remember your account of them spraying.

[Paul Cherubini]

This is what can happen when the department of transportation comes along and sprays the roadsides with herbicides. I remember your account of them spraying.

Nope, there was no spraying between July 15 - Sept. 15. The spraying was done in April before the milkweed came up out of the ground. The July 15 photo above shows how well the milkweed grew on the exact same ground that was sprayed in April. So the photo proves how unharmful the spray was. Also, in April a bunch more roadsides in my area were sprayed, then the milkweed came up nicely, monarchs laid eggs, and normal looking caterpillars and adults developed like these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWlTz0cKwfg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwz9TBX3RwY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i-19BCH31Q

[Mona Miller]

You really expect me to believe any thing that you tell me. And, believe those dates that you gave me. You've presented way too much false data.

[Paul Cherubini]

You really expect me to believe any thing that you tell me. And, believe those dates that you gave me. You've presented way too much false data.

You've made these "false data" accusations before, but have always refused to specify what the alledgedly false data was. So no one can know what false data you are refering to.

With regard to the July 15 vs Sept. 15 dates, here are enlargements of the same photos where you can see how other weeds near the milkweed grew much larger due to 2 months worth of extra growth. You can also see in the July 15 photo that the fascicularis was in full bloom at that time. July is the typically the month when fascicularis is in full bloom.

July 15 photo: http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/4ALC/aphidc.jpg
Sept.15 photo: http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87 ... phidse.jpg

The foliage of nearly all the fascicularis milkweed in that area including the patches far away from the roadside turned brown in late August and Sept due to the yellow aphid infestation and so there were almost no seed pods.

[Mona Miller]

http://www.monarchwatch.org/forums/view ... 020#p11315

2010 is turning out to be a good year for monarchs on the GM Farmland of the upper Midwest. Here is a report I received today from Angella Moorehouse, who oversees butterfly counts in western Illinois:
"My general impression is that Monarch numbers are good this year. 
For the June 19, 2010 count at Revis (Mason County, IL) we had an 11-year record high count for Monarchs (50); the average for that count is 16. 
June 24, the Beardstown County reported 57 which was the 2nd highest in 13 years, the average for that count is 19. 
On Saturday, we got 12 Monarchs near Macomb just above the 25-year average of 11.24.  The high count for McDonough County (Macomb) was 34 on July 24, 2003. 
I'm currently seeing a lot of Monarch eggs and caterpillars so around here I'd say we are between broods and this is typical for this area.  That's the story for here anyway.”
Angella

I emailed Angella to ask her where she does her counts:
"Hi Mona;
I'm not sure what GMO stands for. Genetically Modified X ?
The majority of my count areas (not including counting along roadside while traveling from site to site) are done on land protected by the state, either DNR-owned or privately owned sites that are managed by the state and legally protected as conservation easements. There are a few exceptions, but most these include a couple of privately owned sites that are either managed by the owner in a manner similar to the way the DNR manages protected sites or are unmanaged (former sand quarry where rural town dumps yard wastes). We focus on these sites for several reasons: 1) we want to establish long-term count data on permanently protected sites, 2) sites where there is a greatest chance of rare habitat restricted species, 3) sites were we have permission to count, 4) sites which attract long numbers of butterflies - esp. large patches of common milkweed.
Angella"

You asked for an example of false data and misleading people. Angella wasn't counting on GM cropland. Here's a bit more from Angella:

"Mona;
I don't know of Paul Cherubini.  There is a lot of farmland in the surrounding landscape and there is a high use of Round-up Ready crops out there.  However, one of our biggest concerns has been the use of aerial spraying adjacent to Revis Hill Prairie in Mason County where the numbers of grassland skippers have declined drastically over the past 2 decades.
Angella"

You claim that you received the report from Angella, when Angella doesn't even know you.

[Paul Cherubini]

You asked for an example of false data and misleading people. Angella wasn't counting on GM cropland. Here's a bit more from Angella:
"Mona;
I don't know of Paul Cherubini.  There is a lot of farmland in the surrounding landscape and there is a high use of Round-up Ready crops out there.

So Mona, Angella herself acknowledged there is "alot of [GM] farmland in the surrounding landscape" where her counts were conducted. Example: the Revis Hill prairie remnant site where she conducted a count:


Angella's reports documented the fact that monarchs were abundant on those relatively tiny prairie remnants in western Illinois in June 2010. Therefore the monarchs had to be common on the thousands of square miles of GM farmland surrounding those remnants too since milkweed is abundant along the margins of the GM crops. Then in late August 2010 I documented, with multiple videos, the spectacular abundance of monarchs along the margins of the GM crops and in the small farm towns that are surrounded by GM crops in nearby southern Minnesota:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4e3S2sm13g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDxKwEgsjPc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJCnU7PB9to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCayVVKhlWM

Thus I did not present "false data" in regards to monarchs being abundant on the GM farmland in Illinois or surrounding states in the summer of 2010. My videos and photos showed they were abundant on virtually every square mile of GM farmland because milkweed grows in abundance along the GM crop margins, GM crop roadsides, GM crop shelter belts, GM crop ditches and in the livestock pastures that are surrounded by the GM crops.

[Mona Miller]

Your logic is crazy. Angella doesn't count on farmland. She counts on private lands or parks. Logically, the habitat provided by these private and park lands does provide food for Monarchs and other wildlife because they don't use herbicides and pesticides.

BUT, in the GMO fields, the milkweed has been killed by the farmers using Roundup or other herbicides.

Kill the milkweed, kill the Monarchs.

[Paul Cherubini]

Your logic is crazy. Angella doesn't count on farmland. She counts on private lands or parks. Logically, the habitat provided by these private and park lands does provide food for Monarchs and other wildlife because they don't use herbicides and pesticides. BUT, in the GMO fields, the milkweed has been killed by the farmers using Roundup or other herbicides. Kill the milkweed, kill the Monarchs.

Doesn't work that way. Common milkweed (Asclepias syriaca) is rare to non-existant on unplowed midwestern prairie remnants. None grows on the 416 acre Revis Hill Prairie that Angella monitors: http://www.inhs.illinois.edu/animals_pl ... Revis.html

And Lincoln Brower's cardenolide fingerprinting studies showed 92% of the overwintering monarchs in Mexico fed on syriaca when they were caterpillars.

Syriaca, is abundant, however, along the margins of the pesticide treated GM crops and so that's where BREEDING monarchs are abundant too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MqrvAxTl0I

[Mona Miller]

Monarchs use other species of milkweeds and 3 are listed on the Revis Hill Prairie website that you posted. Why do you mislead people?

http://www.inhs.illinois.edu/animals_pl ... Revis.html
Asclepias amplexicaulis Clasping milkweed Asclepiadaceae
Asclepias verticillata Horsetail milkweed Asclepiadaceae
Asclepias viridiflora Green milkweed Asclepiadaceae

Most people don't even take the time to look up your information, but I do and boy is it a waste of time--always. You are so full of frass it isn't funny.

A tiny bit of polluted milkweed on the edge of GMO farm fields, when thousands of acres have been destroyed due to the use of Roundup. You picked the wrong company to support. Monsanto doesn't care about how their products effect wildlife.

Kill the milkweed, kill the Monarchs.

[Paul Cherubini]

Monarchs use other species of milkweeds and 3 are listed on the Revis Hill Prairie website that you posted. Why do you mislead people?

http://www.inhs.illinois.edu/animals_pl ... Revis.html
Asclepias amplexicaulis Clasping milkweed Asclepiadaceae
Asclepias verticillata Horsetail milkweed Asclepiadaceae
Asclepias viridiflora Green milkweed Asclepiadaceae

Yes those 3 species can be found on the 416 acre Revis Hill Prairie, but they are not common on unplowed prairie land like that. So monarchs and caterpillars not as abundant on these unplowed prairie remnants as compared to the surrounding GM farmland.

Example: If you lived in the upper Midwest and were hired to collect to collect bulk quantities of syriaca, verticillata and tuberosa milkweed seed pods, you'd need to walk along the roadsides, ditches, pastures and railway lines bordering the GM crops in order to find large quantities of milkweed and pods:
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/4ALC/260thb.jpg
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/4ALC/cty8a.jpg

Ditto if you got hired to collect bulk quantities of monarch caterpillars:
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/trumb.jpg
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/4af/balef.jpg

Ditto if you got hired by a commercial monarch breeder to collect lots of gravid females to use as breeding stock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKmDId55pfc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MqrvAxTl0I

[blazing star]

Paul,

Your employer biased data leads you to a misinformed place. GM crops were designed, in part, to withstand the spraying of herbicides in a non judicious manner which then kills weeds (milkweed) along GM farms.

I know you already know this, Paul, so there's no need to reply to this post.

[blazing star]

I worried about aphids on milkweed in previous years, but reasoned that just about anything I might do to remove/kill them potentially affects the monarchs. The milkweed is part of a mixed planting in a five-year-old organically managed perennial border. Two observations as the border matured - the aphids did not interfere with the monarchs and beneficial insects kept the aphids in check. Further, monarchs and aphids are just a tiny slice of the biosphere. Chemicals might be helpful for managing monarchs intensively as a monoculture, but pesticides will reduce the rest of the rich biotic mix that supports a healthy environment for plants and insects.

I suggest keeping the milkweed healthy, encouraging beneficials, and skipping the pesticides.

This may be why I've never had an aphid issue. I have an organic native plant garden with forbs that produce bloom all season long. I've never used chemical pesticides and the mildew and insects never get out of control. By the end of the season, only about 1% of my milkweeds has a large population of aphids on them.

[Paul Cherubini]

Other insects, besides aphids, can lead to the death of large quantities of milkweed. Plant hoppers can do it via spreading lethal milkweed plant diseases. Today on dplex-l Ba Rea shared her experience (see below) of plant hopper devastation. Ba's milkweed could likely have been saved if she had mass sprayed Malathion to kill the plant hoppers:

"Phytoplasma. Here are pictures from my facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... d7ec28d7dd
My experience was that unless I pulled every sprout it sent up, a diseased plant lived 2- 3 years. The plant hoppers are everywhere and spread it throughout the field and roadside portions of the 38 acres I patrol. All of the plants that have been diseased on my property seem to be dead now. I have been watching for diseased milkweed and have not found any yet this year, but in areas where I had robust clones with 10 to 20 ramets there is nothing now. I didn't do a proper reckoning because there was too much else going on in my life but my guess is I lost 80-90% of the milkweed I had 4 years ago. I am hoping that we can start fresh with the surviving clones...but all it will take is one diseased plant hopper. - Ba Rea"