Cats forming chrysalids early

[hinesemerald]

This year I've had a significant percentage (probably 15-20%) of caterpillars that have formed a chrysalis while still quite small - almost as if they skipped the last instar. The butterflies all emerged, but were very small (viceroy size or maybe a little smaller). Caterpillars and adults seemed healthy enough otherwise. Anyone else seeing this, and does anyone have any explanation?

[Paul Cherubini]

You'll get consistently larger adults if you rear the caterpillars and chrysalids outdoors in a screen house type tent and feed the caterpillars milkweed growing in soil. To prevent excess sun exposure and heat buildup inside the tent, cover the top half of it with a breathable heat insulator such as Tyvek Home Wrap. Walmart carries car covers made out of Tyvek for $39 and they fit well over the top half of a screen house.

[dzyg]

Wow, interesting that you typed this. I was about to ask the same thing! All my earlier cats got large and fat before they made their cyrsallis. I found six cats last week on our milkweeds and brought them in. Now they are in our bright living room and the windows are open constantly so the temps are very close to the outside temps, just a tad warmer. It has gotten quite cool here during the nights lately, already down to 47! Two of these six formed their crysallis and I couldn't believe how small they were yet. The crysallis are pretty little too so I imagine the butterflies will be pretty little. The others were bigger and one that had hatched from an egg in the house a couple weeks before this grew large too and should be forming the crysallis tomorrow I am guessing. I was guessing the outside temps had more to do with this than anything. This is my fifth year raising cats in the house and I have never seen this before these two. I have let 50 go so far that were normal and raised in the house and have about 20 to go yet. All but these two are normal sized.

Has anyone else come across this? Is it the weather? Will they migrate or breed being that they are smaller? I am assuming the butteflies that will be emerging around this time are the migrating ones?? We are in WI and normally I don't see cats come the middle of Sept, however there may be a few lates ones around that I don't find.

[hinesemerald]

I've always raised caterpillars indoors, and never seen this problem before. However, this summer was MUCH warmer than usual, so perhaps the higher temps did have something to do with it.

Incidentally, I'm in Wisconsin also.

[Teresa]

I'm seeing this myself this year. Some are big but I also have some very tiny. I'm anxious to see how they do being that small.

[psi_chemie]

I had my first larva pupate Friday night. I was expecting the larva to get bigger before this happened. It just stopped eating the leaves I was giving it, and performed some pretty amazing maneuvers in the container in order to get to the screen top. Then it pupated. I am looking at the pupa now. It's way, way smaller than I thought. This larva was started on "sand vine" until about 2 " then switched to some broad leafed type of milkweed.

Then my AC broke.

The second larva is getting much, much bigger and is still eating right now. My condo temp. went from about 75 constant, to a fluctuation between about 87 high to 75 low.

I have 4 or 5 other larvae following. They are 1" or so. We'll see...

[psi_chemie]

A monarch came out of that first chrysalis just now. I turned my head for a couple minutes and missed the actual emergance, but it's almost unbeleivable how such a thing could happen, I mean the whole thing including transformation, and the jewel-like details on the chrysalis, to this perfect butterfly so well packed..

Anyways, I thought my chrysalis was small and formed kinda early, but being my first one, maybe I didn't know because I had nothing relative. But the monarch I see now has all its parts and is of normal size. Most of my other chrysali seem bigger though. I have 7 more on the way.

It's just hanging there, making some sporadic movements, but what a perfect thing. I guess I will let it hang out until tomorrow when I can release it in a nice field.

[dzyg]

Incidentally two of the Monarchs I had with deformed feet were ones that formed the crysallis early. I had another small crysallis but it turned brown and one of those fly coccons popped out. I have four normal sized crysallis left, then it looks like I am done for this year. Haven't seen any more cats out on the milkweeds.

[Keith Petrosky]

Mabye it's because they sensed Hurricane Katrina at that time?

[MONA]

I have also had some cats going into Chrysalis small, but not early. They are all going into Chrysalis right at 2 weeks, but they seem to be many different sizes. 35 have gone to Chrysalis in the past week. I did run low on Milkweed so they may not have fed as much as they would have liked. Note: Hurricane Ophelia hit our coast (around Wilmington, NC) earlier this week. The winds, pressure, etc. may have had something to do with it. Any thoughts?

[MONA]

Had 15 chrysalis emerge today. ALL SIZES! ALL HEALTHY!!! They are beautiful.

[Paula]

Two Female Monarchs VERY, VERY TINY, butterflies 08-23-05 These two females emerged from eggs on 08-06-05 found on Asclepias Curassavica, raised indoors fed Incarnata ground grown, on branch in H20 w/in acquarium. Both skin shedding identical on 08-10-05 & 08-13-05 & but I did not observe any skin shedding except the day of Chrysallis formation, which was 08-16-05 -- Perhaps they also skipped instar??? When they emerged both VERY, VERY TINY, butterflies, < a Viceroy. I thought these two tiny females were probably SISTERS -- Perhaps eggs from an older (the same) female??? Perhaps larger, butterflies not only w/i Chrysalis for longer time, but also descendants of younger females??? I reared 62 Monarchs/2005. June-July avg. emerged = 8 days, then mid/late August = 9 days & these 2 emerged = 7 days, early by two days. Toward end of season, house air conditioned, placed Monarchs near central air vent, house no > 70 F. Last 3 Monarchs emerged = 10 days/09-11-05 = VERY VERY LARGE.

[Paula]

In 2004, had interesting experiences transporting Monarch Chrysallis' via auto [during two trips involving 2 Chrysallis' one time & 1 Chrysallis a second time]. [Per 2004 emerging averages of preceding Monarch Chrysallis'], these 3 were to emerge from Chrysallis the next day after auto departure at early dawn a.m. as usual on the arrival day]. Although 3 Chrysallis' were in containers, cushioned w/in insulated case, trips each >4 hrs, [2 Monarchs together at same trip] emerged on anticipated day, but later than usual dawn hours & both emerged 3:00 pm - 4:00 pm after stationary for >6 hours and [1 Monarch by itself on a trip] emerged during a.m., one day later [24 hrs later], than anticipated. Perhaps Monachs are capable of delaying emergence from Chrysallis when they feel/sense movement [in this case highway driving], or in case of hurricanes, large winds, storms, etc., they detect danger & delay their Butterfly emerging, to arrive into the world during calmer, safer conditions, so they may have better chance to survive???

[psi_chemie]

That sounds like a good theory, Paula. If they couldn't "hold it" for a couple days during storms, they'd be good as dead.


OK, I think my chrysalides have all been normal size. I just wasn't expecting such big butterflies to come out of something that small. But I have had a 100% success rate.

All mine were started from eggs or 1st instar larvae. I am going to suggest that if you get them inside at this stage, it's before they've had a chance to get infected or parasitised.

It sounds like in many instances described in this forum, a failed butterfly is usually started from a late instar larva?

[Paula]

Monarch cats usually better chances of being uninfected by disease /or not parasitized if found early after emerging from egg -- however, not always because there are "undetectable to eye" with no obvious visual (without microscope view) abnormalities, i.e. Ophryocystis elektroscirrha. That is why it is important to sterilize containers/aquariums, etc. between use by butterflies, i.e. 1 Monarch per container (if possible), i.e. boiling water to aquarium after use. I have no home use of microscope/detect infection, so I sterilize containers & wash hands 20 seconds w/friction, between butterfly handling. However, also i.e. Ophryocystis... spores in air could infect one to another, if a Monarch in room is infected -- i.e. also enclosed containers w/little air circulation used to raise butterflies could promote disease proliferation. Infection could wipe out Monarchs=articles on infection. Truly, most of it is in the hands of a higher power-- Yet, WE ALL must be healthcare advocates for Monarch friends, as well as environmental advocates!!!

[pianopete]

I usually raise all my cats on milkweed that is growing in pots. I move a pot indoors, put the cats on it, and cover with a mesh bag until the chrysalis forms. However, with my last group all my potted plants were outdoors in the process of regrowing new leaves. Thus I had to resort to feeding the cats hand picked leaves from plants growing in the ground. However, this group of cats only grew to about half size those that normally grow on potted plants, and the chrysalis was also very small. This morning we had our first of this group of small cats emerge from the chrysalis, and so far about half are small monarchs, and the other half are severely deformed and do not move. I was hoping to be able to feed hand picked leaves when necessary, but now I'm wondering.

[psi_chemie]

Yeah, it didn't seem like mine were liking picked leaves either. I started my first couple of maggots (he he) on frozen picked leaves, and they didn't seem to like it. The leaves get all wilty and nasty when picked, no wonder.

But I saw in one of the monthly updates on this site that they were just cutting stems of plants and sticking the end in water.. I tried that and it's been excellent. The milkweed not only stays fresh but sometimes sprouts roots.. so no more need for cutting leaves, or having pots indoors. I have no garden space, so I can't grow it in pots.

[monarchlady]

Last cat emerged today for this season - first time I had one so late in season. It too was small-was not as large as 4th instar cats (reared from batch of 14 eggs brought inside individual containers). I was surprised that it j-hooked and pulpated because of its size. Late yesterday, it emerged and its size was relatively normal-it was not small and was a male. I tagged him today and released him into a pleasant, warm morning. Released close to 60 this year-which is a record for me. If I could, I would realse 100's. Kudos to all for what you do to help this incredible creature.

[Teresa]

I had my last cat go into J yesterday, this worries me because that means it will emerge the middle of October and I know it will be pretty cool. I still have about 10 to come out and then i'm done for the season. I reached my goal of 100 tagged and will release more than that. What a great season!!

[Pat]

Still have 22 chrysalides. I haven't noticed any correlation at all between speed of growth or size of chrysalis to the type of food or container the cats are kept in. Even when I've followed a female around at a discreet distance, collecting the eggs right after she lays them, the cats from the same days' laying will not all mature at the same rate.

All I've noticed is that a large supply of rinsed leaves is a necessity! If a caterpillar is anywhere close to the right age and it thinks its food supply is exhausted, it will try to pupate. But in any case, I assume monarchs naturally come in a range of normal sizes, just as people do, regardless of how much they've been fed.

[Megathymus ursus]

My best guess is that it is some form of malnutrition. Heat alone (unless it's like over 100 F in full sun) should not have anything to do with this. Try another type of milkweed, perhaps.