Is this protozoan OE infection?

[VICKI T.]

I have been raising Monarch's for quite a few years and have experienced, what I believe is the OE infection before. It is really devistating and I am pretty sure I have it again. I just took 4 J's down from the top of my screen box, and I think I may have to take two more down by tomorrow. I have read quite a lot about the infection, but I can't get a clear idea of how this can affect my other cats. I know how it starts, with the female dropping spores onto the eggs and leaf when she oviposts. I usually cut the egg off the leaf and only bring a small piece in while it is getting ready to hatch. Will the hatchling on that leaf "carry" the spores around and drop them where ever it travels, and they do travel a lot at that stage. I currently have 15 chrysalis in my large screen hatching box, this is where the J's were. I have about 14 5th instars in the same box ready to go up to the top. I have another 10-15 that are close to changing to 5th, and another 20 that are 3rd. Then I have about 15-20 1st to 2nd, and 27 eggs. It has been a good year, up till now. (I also gave my Mother about 40 eggs/hatchlings, and my sister 20) I have been collecting eggs and hatchlings from three locations, my yard, next to the building I work in, and a local park. I move all of them from container to container as they grow, so everything has been touched by all the different cats.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can safely continue to raise the cats I have? Is there any new information on how to deal with this condition? Most of what I have found on the web is not as current as I was hoping to find. I am hoping that I don't have to euthanize all of my broods. What kind of risks am I facing? I am very sad for my cats, given the bad winter in Mexico, I knew that we would have to work really hard to put alot of butteflys back out there. But I want to put HEALTHY butterflys out there. So if there is anyone who has been through this and has some advise I would REALLY, REALLY appreciate it.

Thanks, Vicki

[Mona Miller]

It is not transferred from caterpillar to caterpillar. It is transferred onto the egg when the mother lays it. It can also be left by shedding spores on plants that infected butterflies visit, then caterpillars get the spores by eating those plant. Both male and females can have it because it is through the eating of their eggs that they get the spores or the plants where infected butterflies visit and leave spores.

I've actually partially raise caterpillars, given them to someone else and then they've raised them. When they were tested, not all the butterflies had the OE.

Did you thoroughly clean your cages before you used them? Spores can survive for a long time on surfaces, too.

http://www.monarchparasites.org/
Project Monarch Health
Did you read this website, click on the "What is OE" or "Rearing Monarchs"? Loads of information here.

http://www.butterflyfunfacts.com/butterflydisease.php
Here's info on two diseases: OE and Nosema

[VICKI T.]

Hi Mona, THANK YOU!! I feel much better now. I am continuing to lose cats, took another J down this morning that couldn't complete it transformation to a chrysalis. The large hatching box I am using was brand new, and so were my trays for the various stages. Everything will get a thorough sterlilization before next season, however!! Thanks for the links below, I will check them out next.

This is my first visit to this forum and I see your name alot. I imagine you have been raising Monarch's for some time now. Do you have any suggestions on how to proceed knowing I have a batch of infected cats? Should I "simply" continue to do what I always do?

I appreciate any tips. We have all had different experiences and learn from them. Thanks, again Mona.

Vicki

[Mona Miller]

Best thing to do is separate any infected or sick caterpillars/pupa. Which state are you in? Some of the infection levels are greater in Florida and California. Also areas where it doesn't freeze in winter. I've been raising Monarchs for 17 years.

[skinnyhoops]

Hello from Florida! I'm new here, but wanted to share some information I received from a reputable company in southern florida, the name I won't say because I don't want to hurt business from Monarch Watch. In south Florida, with all the heat and humidity in the summer time, the caterpillars simply don't fair well. I recently had similar problems with a few cats hanging in the J position and not forming a chrysalis. My best guess is bacteria, since bacteria thrives in wet (humid) habitats. The only thing you can do is remove infected cats away from others, keep the leaves and cages as dry & santized as possible, and just some good ol' fashion TLC.

[VICKI T.]

Hi Mona, I am in New Berlin, Wisconsin. A suburb of Milwaukee. I have been raising butterflys for about 8 years, my sister (about 30 miles west of Milwaukee) and my Mom, also in New Berlin have been raising for about 20 years. I am going to keep an eye on all the cats, and anyone who looks remotely "sick" get put into solitary!! haha!!! I read a great article on the butterflyfunfacts website about how to sterilize the eggs and leaves to eliminate the OE spores, I will be doing that for the rest of the season. Since I am harvesting eggs and collecting leaves from several sources I can't be sure where I picked up the infected eggs, and I don't want to continue to infect with leaves that may have spores on them. I am feeling much less guilty than I did last night when I first posted. Thanks for the support and info.

Hi Skinnyhoops in Florida - I read several really interesting studys that I found on the links that Mona suggested about the rate of OE in the three groups of Monachs (West of the Rockies, East of the Rockies and the southern tip of Florida) in the US. The highest % is in the Florida group, second was California and much lower is the large group that overwinters in Mexico. They attibuted this to the lack of, or minimal migration. Since migration is very difficult it requires that the butterflys be strong and healthy. And also the fact that the milkweed that the group that migrates feeds on is new every season. Check out these links for some very interesting info.

Thanks again for the help.
Vicki

[Mona Miller]

I've never tried sterilizing the eggs with bleach. Be careful. I usually try to make sure the females/males that I am breeding don't have OE. I do tape checks on them. The information about testing for OE is located on the Project Monarch Health website.

[Mona Miller]

Hello from Florida! I'm new here, but wanted to share some information I received from a reputable company in southern florida, the name I won't say because I don't want to hurt business from Monarch Watch. In south Florida, with all the heat and humidity in the summer time, the caterpillars simply don't fair well. I recently had similar problems with a few cats hanging in the J position and not forming a chrysalis. My best guess is bacteria, since bacteria thrives in wet (humid) habitats. The only thing you can do is remove infected cats away from others, keep the leaves and cages as dry & santized as possible, and just some good ol' fashion TLC.

That could also be fly predation. Did you check for fly larvae in the cages? The larvae is very small. Comes out while the caterpillar is hanging in a J most of the time. Sometimes it waits for the pupa stage. They look like little worms and then make a tiny brown pupa.

http://www.uga.edu/monarchparasites/
Monarch Parasites

If your cage isn't parasite proof, the flies can easily lay through the netting.

Also, Monarch caterpillars do have a heat tolerance level (see below for information).

http://www.mymonarchguide.com/
My Monarch Guide has very good information.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3565556
31 C to 35.5 C temperatures become lethal (87.8 to 95.5 F)
12 C development threshold (53.6 F)

[skinnyhoops]

That could also be fly predation. Did you check for fly larvae in the cages? The larvae is very small. Comes out while the caterpillar is hanging in a J most of the time. Sometimes it waits for the pupa stage. They look like little worms and then make a tiny brown pupa.

http://www.uga.edu/monarchparasites/
Monarch Parasites

If your cage isn't parasite proof, the flies can easily lay through the netting.

Hello, I heard about the fly larvae but I didn't see any little worms crawling in the cage. The reason I suspected bacteria infection is because one of the "J" cats was leaking black stuff before it failed to make a chrysalis. All is good now, I haven't lost any cats within the last week. This morning I found 4 new chrysalis. woo hoo.

My cage is indoors, this is where the eggs hatch too. I would keep everything outdoors but my yard has so many wasps. A couple days ago I actually witnessed a wasp knock down a mid-sized caterpillar off a leaf then killed it. I took my pruners and cut the wasp in half while it was attacking the caterpillar. This was more revenge since I couldn't save the caterpillar. Very sad to witness this but I just keep telling myself it's nature.

[Mona Miller]

Not natural when it is an invasive European Paperwasp, doing the chopping up and eating. They will also take down medium sized butterflies.

http://bugguide.net/node/view/5081/bgimage
This is the European Paperwasp, if you click on data (maps of where it is located and what months), and info (more about its lifecycle).

[sassypriscilla]

Hi Vicki,

I live in Wauwatosa, WI. This is my first year raising Monarchs.

I hope your problem is solved soon! Have you visited the Monarch Trail in Wauwatosa?

Sarah

[VICKI T.]

Hi Sara, Welcome to the beautiful world of raising Monarch's. Yes, I have. It's very nice. My Mom started, about 20 years ago, raising Monarch's in Wauwatosa, too. By the time she really got going her entire back yard had become a garden of Milkweed plants!! It was really amazing to see. Her most prolific year was well over 400 butterfly's released. She must have been exhausted by the end of the season. But she learned so much by watching all of the changes they made and how they reacted and what they needed, or didn't! When she first started there was no internet, and very little printed material so much of what she learned was by trial and error. I started seriously about 8 years ago, with a few years off for health reasons. My most prolific year was 225 butterfly's released, PHEW!! In spite of the protozoan OE, I am well on my way to over 100-150 this year, as long as I can keep feeding those hungry 5th instars!! Someone told me the other day, that a 5th instar eats what would be of 100# of food a day if they were a person! I wonder if that's true.

Good luck with your first year. Don't hesitate to ask questions. Everyone has different techniques for raising, so ask lots of questions. I hope you didn't get flooded out today (7" of rain on the north side of Milwaukee, YIKES!!). We are at the "top of the hill" so we are in good shape.
Vicki