fallen chrysalis

[monarchlady]

HELP - I have had two chyrsalis fall in three days - I tried to attach with a pin (like I see at the butterfly sanctuaries) to a piece of wood - but, the little black stem broke off and a goo came out. Have I lost them or is there still a chance to carry them through to full term (butterfly)? Thanks for any suggestions.

[Jim]

Don't worry about a fallen chrysalis...monarch pupae will develop and emerge just fine even when they are not hanging. In fact, most that we raise are placed in individual "emergence chambers" - pupa laid on a paper towel and covered with an inverted clear plastic cup with screening attached inside. The only time falling might be an issue is if it occurs during pupation (even then it might be ok).

As for the cremaster being broken off, you'll just have to wait and see if that damage has any ill-effects.

Good Luck!

[monarchlady]

Thanks for your reply - and I remembered from last year reading about "alligator clips" - got one today for a birthday gift with a butterfly cutsie thing attached. I used it to secure the chrysalis with its sooo very small black stem - and it worked!!!! I just read your message about leaving it down, but I feel much better that I have again been able to "hang it". Will know for future - I am raising 18 this time around and am very protective - can't imagine the person who said they are raising 300 - too stressful for me - I am a protective "mom". Thanks again.

[MILW]

I find a drop of crazy glue on a chopstick works well for re-hanging the chrysalis ( I didn't realize you could just let them lay on their sides!). Anyway, a dusting of baking soda on the wet crazy glue makes it set up instantly, so you don't have to wait!
cheers- Scott

[Teresa]

I had one yesterday that looked like it tore in a perfect line aroune the gold bead line while they are green. I looked down on the bottom of the cage and seen a small green thing. What did that?

[Pat]

Our that have fallen do fine on a paper towel, and my son made a few hanging "perches" out of K'Nex that we just wrapped in some cotton macrame cord I had lying around. The butterfly emerges from the chrysalis and crawls right up to a traditional hanging position with no problems. They're reliable enough at it that we just set the ones that are ready to emerge the next day on the breakfast table with a bunch of these little hangers around them and there's usually 1 or 2 already drying their wings when we come down in the morning.

There's always the odd one, though ~ we did find one hanging from the breakfast bananas this morning.

[Teresa]

This one wasn't a butterfly yet, there was just a green blob on the bottom of the cage and the top half of the crysalis was still hanging there. It's like it just broke in half.

[Pat]

Yuck, haven't seen that one before. Wonder what caused it.

[Teresa]

I don't know but i'm hoping someone here does.

[farkel4]

I'm with you on the "nervous mom" thing. I can't raise too many at a time--I do head counts every morning! One summer, someone escaped and we searched all over. We finally found him on the bottom of Dad's chair at the table. Poor Dad had to find a new chair as we didn't want the poor thing disrupted. He didn't find it as amusing as we did!

[esbris]

When caterpillars get away and attach themselves to a surface you don't want them to be on(like my buffet!!) I just wait till the chrysalis is not so new and tie dental floss around the black stem tight and very gently pull the dental floss and voila'-you can tie the dental floss around a stick and it will be okay when the butterfly comes out!

[Teresa]

I tried the string thing and it always slipped off. slippery little devils. hehe

[Pamela Moresby]

I've found if a crysalis forms in the wrong place, I've used some cotton thread and tied a knot to the root and tied it to a suitable place.

Fallen crysalis, well, I've used cotton (sewing thread), It's tricky and a lot of patience is required. A firm grip of the cotton and secure the crysalis without pressing on it and tie it as quickly and as tightly as close to the base of the crysalis as possible. It usually works for me.

Pam

[Jacqui_in_NZ]

Hello Pamela and others,

The best idea I've heard of is to place a piece of adhesive tape on one side of the stem (so along the flat surface they're attached to) and another piece of tape parallel to that, then remove both pieces of tape and the silk "pad" which is attached to the stem will come away with the tape. Then I stick the tape onto a coat-hanger. Works well! I have tied the threat and dental floss, and have on some occasions tied it too tightly -- disaster.

Jacqui

[Pamela Moresby]

Thanks Jacqui,

I will try the adhesive tape technique next time.
Pam

[Pamela Moresby]

Thanks Jacqui,

I will try the adhesive tape technique next time.
Pam

[Megathymus ursus]

HELP - I have had two chyrsalis fall in three days - I tried to attach with a pin (like I see at the butterfly sanctuaries) to a piece of wood - but, the little black stem broke off and a goo came out. Have I lost them or is there still a chance to carry them through to full term (butterfly)? Thanks for any suggestions.

The breaking of the cremaster, and subsequent bleeding, is evidence that you are likely moving them too soon. Try giving the pupae a full two days to harden. Then the silk will separate rather than the cremaster (stem).

[monarchlady]

Thanks for reply, but they fell on their own - button was not strong enough.
At that time, I did try to reattach them. I know now that they are safe, and as you stated, for a few days or totally until emerging. We are learning! Thanks again.

[Megathymus ursus]

In some other butterflies, a weak silk pad can be a symptom of a sick larva and the pupa will die. I am glad yours are fine though. Brian

[Pamela Moresby]

Quite often, with a fallen crysalis - I used sewing cotton to tie it to another spot by tying it to the black thread. Takes a lot of patience but usually works for me.
Some I know used superglue. The sticky tape also sounds a good idea.
regards
Pam
from NZ

[Megathymus ursus]

Some I know used superglue.

Ooh. I'd be careful with that. Cyanoacrylate (superglue) has some extremely nasty fumes that I wouldn't rule out can cause harm to the pupa.

[Pamela Moresby]

I agree, superglue is very dicey. Don't think I like suspicious chemicals either.
Pam
from NZ

[psi_chemie]

Megathymus - I needed to remove a pupa and in doing so broke the cremaster halfway down, so that a string wouldn't hold. All I had was some cyanoacrylate. The butterfly came out fine. The problem I had was it wasn't sticking very well. I dropped the pupa twice before I got a good stick, once it bounced off my tile floor from a height of 4 feet!! I was thrilled that it came out OK.

[Pamela Moresby]

Glad to see the butterfly turned out right!
Pam
from NZ

[Megathymus ursus]

I would maybe try to see if hot glue-gun glue would work... if you could ONLY get it on the cremaster.

Otherwise the answer is to put the fallen pupa inside of a heavily padded box (paper towel on all surfaces), so the butterfly will be able to crawl up the sides and hang properly.

[harpo787]

Howdy! I mentioned elsewhere that we had a new chrysalis form yesterday, and I took a few pics of it. Came back today, and the pupa has since fallen. I'm not sure if it managed to hang on overnight, or how soon it fell. It appears though that it might have fallen soon after taking the pupa form, as one part seems not as solid as the rest...like maybe it was the side it rested on when it fell. Again, took more pics and I'll post them when I'm at home.

After reading some of the suggestions here, it seems that perhaps it would be best if I just left the chrysalis to remain "grounded". I fear that if I try to reapply it to a hanging position that I may damage it.

Is there a certain temperature I should try to maintain? A level of moisture? At the moment I'm keeping it inside a...I guess a kid's "critter cage" of sorts...plastic on all sides, the top a nice sort of...well, I'll take pics of it too.

[harpo787]

As promised, here's a few pics of the situation:


I think this pupa was formed on a leaf, and the cat you see here ate that leaf away causing the pupa to fall. Notice the side the pupa is resting on.


This is the container he's in...it does come with a lid that clasps on. However, I think the openings in the lid might be large enough for bad news insects to get in, but not so large that a caterpillar could get out (unless particularly young). Since there's no plant life on the porch, would there be any concern of predator insects?

I've got the container outside on the upstairs terrace. It gets direct sunlight from about 7/8 am until around 1 pm. Would this be too strong and possibly cook the pupa? I fear it might, and have turned the patio table on it's side to block out the direct sunlight. Would the pupa be ok if I brought it indoors and it got no sunlight at all?


Here's a closer shot of the pupa. As I mentioned earlier, it rested on one side, and here you can see that a portion of the pupa is darker (or perhaps more translucent?).

Thanks again for all the help!

[Jim]

Hi Harpo: You should try to keep the pupa out of direct sunlight - keeping it indoors would be just fine. It looks like there is no silk attached to the cremaster (black "stalk") so hanging it with dental floss or thread may not be a very secure option. The monarch should be able to emerge fine resting on its side like that - we place most of our pupae in individual "emergence chambers" (clear plastic cups with screening attached to the inside and inverted over the pupa on a tray lined with a paper towel) and the monarchs climb up the side and hang to expand their wings. Just make sure to place something in your container (sticks, mesh, paper towels, etc) that the emerging monarch can climp up in order to hang...the first ten minutes or so after emergence is critical and if a monarch is unable to hang, the wings will be deformed.

BTW - I notice you referred to the pupa as a "he" - is this a guess or do you know for sure? Yes, you can determine the sex of the developing butterfly...here's how: www.monarchwatch.org/biology/sexing.htm

[harpo787]

I've brought the pupa inside. I was going to ask is the indoor temp (never lower than 75) going to be too cold, and then realized how stupid such a question is. They do just fine in even colder weather than that. I've just made it a point to not keep the cage directly in the path of the airvent.

I tried to identify the sex of the pupa, but everytime I touch it, I feel like I'm damaging it. So no luck there...and I don't plan on touching it again unless it's ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. I've even managed to put the container at a good level so I don't even have to pick it up to check up on it. It's also out of reach of my vicious cats.

I'm keeping the cage empty of anything for basically the next week. As it gets closer to emerging from the pupa, I'll place some stuff inside for him/her to hang onto.

By the way, how long will it be until it emerges? At what point does the pupa become more translucent to the point of seeing monarch colors?

Thanks again!

[Jim]

By the way, how long will it be until it emerges? At what point does the pupa become more translucent to the point of seeing monarch colors?

The monarch should emerge within 10-14 days of pupating, depending on temp. It will become pregressively more translucent as it nears the end of its develoment and it will be within about 24hrs from emerging when it looks like:

[harpo787]

Unfortunately, I think my "lil buddy" will not emerge. The pupa is now a dull green, no longer with that very vibrant green color. I've felt rather cold inside as of late and so I decided to move the pupa back outdoors today. I'll take a pic of it tomorrow and perhaps someone can give me the prognosis.

[psi_chemie]

Harpo, I had something similar happen. In my case, the pupa was on a leaf and I was carrying it across my kitchen when it fell.

The pupa fell about 4 feet and hit tile, bouncing about three times like a very uneven rubber ball. I picked it up with my fingers and it felt like dense rubber. After such a drop, I was sure it was toast. There wasn't any cremaster left but for about a 1 mm nub.

This was very hard but I superglued the cremaster nub to a peice of balsa wood so it could hang upside down.

The butterfly turned out a female and 100% OK. But I think it had more time to hang at first before falling so it wasn't deformed.

[madmonarch_nz]

Hey fellow Monarchers,

I have a question. I have a crysalis thats hanging but the other day It started dripping some liquid. It is a dark brown/black colour. I thought perhaps it had died but when i went to touch it instead of collasping into a brown smelly mess (Ive had to others do that) its stayed intact.

Is all ok?

[harpo787]

MadMonarch: Sounds like trouble to me...but I'm very new at this and have never raised a Monarch from cat to butterfly. Just seems like every story of "leaking" is a negative story. Well, except when the monarch emerges from the pupa and is very fat looking and then proceeds to pump out a bit of liquid.

[harpo787]

psi-chemie: the drop was very minimal...only a few inches from the leaf it was hanging from to the next leaf down. One of these threads has a "before and after" set of pics of the situation.

Well, I checked on the pupa again a few days ago, and it was almost white in color, and starting to brown a bit in lines. It didn't look good at all, so I wrote it off.

Unfortunately, I was very wrong. I say unfortunate as I made the discovery today, and there was a monarch in a darkened room in a cage with nowhere to hang. I felt HORRIBLE to say the least. Well, I immediately took him out and placed him on the tropical milkweed and he fed for a bit. I kept him and the milkweed in a storage room outside because it was rather windy. Here's a pic:



I figured it was unfair, who knows how long he'll live...so I brought him outside to the rest of the plants. I went to a movie, came back and he was gone. I'd like to think that his wings adjusted and he flew off, but I doubt it.

[Pamela Moresby]

Sometimes I've had butterflys hatch like these. Sometimes they can fly and other times not. A lot is pure physics of the formation of the wings.

I keep the ones that can't fly as pets and find them great companions. One lived to 7 weeks and 4 days. Usually give it fresh flowers daily, sugar water or just water. Let them exercise and keep them safe at night.

Pamela
from NZ

[harpo787]

Pamela: true it would have been fun to keep it as a pet, but I didn't really have the option to do it. I've only got the tiny critter carrier device which is maybe a foot long and 10 inches high. Not much of a place to stay for a butterfly, and no room for plants really. I would have gladly let it roam the home if I didn't have two cats (read: felines!) who would be rather curious by it.

However, as of today I've finished building....my MASTERPIECE! I wish I had it done before I had discovered the monarch, I think it would have been a good home.

I came up with an idea for a cage so that I can have a mini-butterfly garden here at my apartment/townhouse. It's a large structure at 4 feet wide x 4 feet long x 8 feet high. It's screened in, so that when cats want to wander off, they can go up the screen to the roof which is also screened to pupate, or go on to one of the plants inside.

I'll have pictures and a new entry up in the next day over at my "My Monarch Experience" thread which can be seen here: http://www.monarchwatch.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=405

[Pearlandvb]

Hot glue guns work great to re-attach a fallen chrysalis. Just dab a bit wherever you want the chrysalis and then stick the spider-web stuff at the end of the cremaster (if there is any) or the black cremaster itself into the warm glue and it will stick. I remove chrysales routinely from whatever inconvenient place they've settled, and then hot glue them to a stick for easier viewing. Also easier to cart them into classrooms.

[harpo787]

I figured any sort of gluing would work to reattach...I guess my question is, how do I remove the pupa? I obviously don't want to cut the pupa itself!

[Pearlandvb]

Do you mean "how do I remove the chrysalis"? Just scrape it off whatever it's attached to with a knife or your fingernails or a credit card. The cremaster is attached to the surface with a spider-web-type cotton-like material that will scrape off. Then you can wind the spider-web-stuff around a stick (if there's enough) or glue it to a stick with a got glue gun. When I've had the chrysalis fall off or I've been unable to pry off any spider-web-stuff, I've also had luck hot-gluing the cremaster itself to a stick. Works. The chrysalis is greasy and fragile, so I try to to touch it too much, but sometimes I do get my fingers on the top of it to pry it off wherever it's attached. As long as you don't squish it, it won't hurt.

[harpo787]

Oh, ok. So the attachment point (the white stuff) is not "solid" or one large mass but tons of tiny silken threads? I've never monkeyed around with it, so I'm just not sure. I just didn't want to break that attachment point or to even worse, break the pupa at all.

So you say a credit card will do...I wonder should I remove it sooner rather than later? Now, or when it's translucent and maybe just a few days away from hatching.

[jasmon]

I removed nineteen chrysallides by cutting them with very small scissors very close to the stem of the plant they were hanging from. I use a hot glue gun and thread to attach them to a twig. I was able to cut part of the stem of the plant with the chrysallis on it for some of them. I think it is best to move them about 2 days after the chrysallis has formed rather than shortly before it is ready to emerge. All nineteen of the ones I removed emerged without a problem.

[harpo787]

I wish the pupa was attached to a branch/twig, it would make things MUCH simpler. But, as you see, it's attached to metal railing!
That's the wrong picture, it's obviously since become a pupa.

[Pearlandvb]

Yes, I'd agree that if it makes its chrysalis on a plant leaf you can just cut off the whole leaf or part of the leaf to transport the chrysalis, then glue it onto something convenient. However, if it makes its chrysalis under the chair or hanging off the toaster handle or on the corner of the antique Bible (which mine seem to like to do) then you have to do the scrape and transfer method. I don't think it matters when you transfer, though I haven't tried it during the stage when the caterpillar is hanging in the J but hasn't yet wriggled out of its skin.

I have had a few chrysales fall to the ground soon after they formed, and they flattened out completely on one side. One of them was almost entirely square. I figured they were lost causes, but I was amazed to see that perfectly fine butterflies came out of them.

Here is another interesting thing I've learned: the caterpillars will go into their chrysalis EARLY if they are starved. Now, I haven't done this intentionally but on several occasions I have been unable to find enough butterfly weed to feed all of the caterpillars. I have had some in the 4th instar (so not all the way grown) who realized there was no more food and made a chrysalis. The result was TINY, about 2/3 normal size. Again, I figured "lost cause", but again, to my amazement, a perfect flying TINY Monarch butterfly emerged, about 2/3 normal size.