When to declare failure to progress?

[skates4marty]

If a C is dark in the morning, say 8 a.m., but has not eclosed by about noon, I move things along by bringing the cage out into the sun. Within a half-hour, the B is usually out. What is everyone's experience -- after how many hours being black does a C need more aggressive intervention? When I first started out, before I hit on the "out in the sun" strategy, I did help a B out of its C at about 4 in the afternoon, and it did fine.

[Wyvern]

If you can clearly see the orange markings through the black chrsyalis, they will often eclose within 1-6 hours. However, I often will wait 24 hours after they've gone black before declaring a chrysalis failed/dead.

[skates4marty]

Of the 24-hr old black C's that you've had, what percent have eclosed and been normal? I am babysitting 20 C's for a friend who had unusually high mortality in the spring. Yesterday, I "delivered" one dying B in the afternoon. So the other 2 black C's I left until today. Both eclosed on their own, but had slightly crumpled wings and could not fly.

[Mona Miller]

OE. Are you testing these butterflies? This sound like they have OE.

Be careful with full sun. It can cook pupae in an open container. Pupae in nature most of the time seek shelter under the leaves. I say most of the time because I get some stupid caterpillars who make their pupa in places no other caterpillar would dare to venture.

[skates4marty]

>> Are you testing these butterflies? This sound like they have OE.<<

That's what I'm thinking. I will tell my friend. Not sure she will be ready to up her game and get into testing. I know I'm not ready for that step yet.

But couldn't the crumpled wings also be from being fully developed but not eclosing in a timely manner? Or are you saying the delayed eclosing and crumpled wings are both independent signs of Oe?

>> Be careful with full sun. It can cook pupae in an open container. <<

I shade the green ones. These are the fine net cages, not aquariums. I will be careful. When they are in the sun, I visit often, gesticulate, and say things such as, "Come ON!"

[Mona Miller]

Full sun can cook and the butterflies can't tell you they are being cooked. Trying going out for an hour or more without sun screen during the middle of the day.

Crumpled wings, butterflies not emerging, weak butterflies falling to the bottom of the cage, too much fluid left in the abdomens--all signs of OE.

[skates4marty]

Re: sun
I'm conscious that the C can't move away at will. But I've left black C's alone (not in the sun) and when I finally helped them open, they were a sodden mess -- which I think of as an infant left too long in utero who aspirates its meconium. A little sun and warmth seems to act like pitocin. Do you ever intervene (with the equivalent of a c-section, pitocin, forceps/suction delivery)? Or do you figure that not eclosing is a sign of Oe or other problem, and just dispose of the C?

[Mona Miller]

I used to in the past, but decided that the butterfly must make this journey on its own. They must have the strength to get out of that pupa, hang on, and inflate their wings. If they don't have the strength to do that they won't have the strength to migrate.

What doesn't kill us makes us stronger--Friedrich Nietzsche.

[Wyvern]

Of the 24-hr old black C's that you've had, what percent have eclosed and been normal? I am babysitting 20 C's for a friend who had unusually high mortality in the spring. Yesterday, I "delivered" one dying B in the afternoon. So the other 2 black C's I left until today. Both eclosed on their own, but had slightly crumpled wings and could not fly.

I don't get any that survive if they don't emerge within the 6 hour period .. I just don't like to call it an actual failure until the 24 hour mark has passed. Today I finally removed 5 bad C's. 3 of them turned out to have parasitic fly maggots emerge and their pupas were on the bottom of the containers. Had I thrown the C's away yesterday, the flies could have gotten out into the wild to infect more pillars....now they are safely popped into the freezer.

I'm actually surprised this year... 8 cases of parasitic flies, but no wasps as of yet. I usually get one wasp infection each year but none so far. :::fingers crossed:::