advice on collecting and hatching eggs

[mflutterby]

Is there some info on the proper way to keep the monarch eggs? I have placed them on damp paper towels in closed containers. This is day 3 and I am not sure what I should be looking for. This is a first for us so any advice would be appreciated.

[tartandtiny]

I usually pick the leaf they are on and keep the stem moist with a wet paper towel. I place the leaf on a small plastic plate -- actually covers you get with take out meals. No need to cover the container as little cats dont go far. Check the leaf daily to be sure it doesnt get to dry, if it does tear leaf around egg and place on fresh leaf. Cats should hatch in 3-4 days. After hatching carefully transfer baby cat to fresh leaf - either by using a damp paint brush or tearing around the leaf it is on and it will eventually crawl onto fresh leaf on it's own. You will need to supply fresh leaf every day, as they dry out quickly.

You should have the eggs on a fresh leaf, not a paper towel because as soon as they hatch they are going to need to eat.

If you dont want to pick the leaf the egg is on you dont have to. In the past I have collected eggs by removing them from the leaf they were on but then immediately put them all on a leaf until they hatch.

[mflutterby]

I actually have the leaves that the eggs are on placed on the damp paper towels. Tomorrow will be day 4. It just doesn't seem like the eggs have changed much since I brought them in. I am just anxious I guess, I hope they will be alright.

[tartandtiny]

I am sure you will see them in the next couple of days. With my recent eggs, I never noticed the eggs darken, just woke up to find babies. -- They are incrediably tiny and sometimes if the leaf has dried a bit it will curl up on the edges. I notied that you will find the babies in those curls or also near the steam if you have the steam wrapped with a paper towel. They like to hide.

[Mona Miller]

Too little humidity the leaves will dry out, too much and the leaves will rot. I use a deli lid, clip small pieces of the milkweed and place them on the deli lid. I put this into a larger container. Damp paper towel on bottom of container, deli lid with small bits of leaf and egg on top of papertowel, then I put the top on which has a few holes for ventilation. I also put the lid on to keep the little cats from roaming. They can roam farther than you think. I had to be careful with the top of the lid because sometimes they are on the lid when I open the container. Monitoring is important. Take out the caterpillars that have hatched and give them fresh food and a new container. Newly hatched caterpillars can crawl over and eat a egg that hasn't hatched.

[mflutterby]

So far the leaves seem to be looking healthy. This makes me nervous, we want to do everything right and not be the reason why 17 eggs don't hatch.

[Mona Miller]

A few people have had eggs that just didn't hatch. Give it time. Inside air conditioning can take longer than outside heat. It is in the 90s here this week. 3-5 days is the norm in the summer.

[texas butterfly]

Good descriptions and tips on how to do it.

I was putting mine on the wet paper towels, but it seems that after a couple of days if too wet they start to try to mold.

I'm changing how I'm doing it now. I'm now putting the leaves on a paper plate and then in a larger container with lid to keep the humidity in. I've put some wet towels to add the humidity.

[Mona Miller]

Yes this is what I have found. If it is too wet, then the leaves mold. I also found that adding a few small holes in the lid of the container helps. I check them at least twice a day to let more air in and to remove new hatchlings, too.

[mflutterby]

I checked on the eggs this morning and I am able to see a black dot at the top of all them. I think we are getting close. The leaves are all still in good shape, no mold and not dried out.

[mflutterby]

Once the eggs hatch, what is your recommendation for housing the larva? We have an aquarium that we thought might be spacious enough. What about those butterfly habitats?

[Mona Miller]

http://www.mymonarchguide.com/2007/07/u ... arvae.html
This person recommends plastic shoe boxes.

I use 13 cup, glad containers with the holes in the top that I make with a sharp corn holder. 5 oz. cup in center, paper towel over top cup.

Or you can place milkweed stems in a bottle of water (make sure all gaps in the top are closed--monarchs can't swim). This needs to be placed inside some type of container or inside I have used 5 gallon paint strainers (paint dept. at Lowes). Get the ones with elastic bottoms. This can be pulled over the plant in the bottle and secured with string.

Or purchase some protective enclosure from Live Monarch or Educational Science. Monarch Watch has a deluxe cage in their store, too.

[Pixie]

I use an aquarium with a screen top method.......I bought some insect screening (about $6.00 at Home Depot) to line the four walls - had to cut to fit & I used double sided scotch tape to hold the screening in place. I put paper towel on the floor of it. I bought a block of floral sponge & cut it into several pieces, several for one day & several to exchange the next day Every day day I wet the sponges, stick in fresh milkweed, take out the used ones & transfer the cats from the old milkweed to the fresh milkweed. Can clean out the old paper towel (full of frass!!) at this time before returning the cats. This works for me. So I'm sure whatever you decide to do will be fine. I love the mesh sleeve from LiveMonarch & used that on my potted milkweed until the cats were big enough to bring inside.

Good luck!!

Dottie (Pixie)
WS# 252

[Mona Miller]

I used to use one of those large plastic critter keepers. The lids have slits that are too large, so I drapped some tulle and then put the top on. That too was a struggle to get to clean out the bottom when cats were "Jing" of hardening at the top. Sometimes I would drap it over something. Like the papertowels or a canster of something. Everything in the house becomes a target for adapting it to use to rear butterflies.

[mflutterby]

Well, 16 of our 17 eggs hatched this morning. The 17th doesn't look like a monarch egg, so kept it separate. We went to our bakery and asked for the plastic cups with lids that they put the parfaits in. They were kind enough to give them to us. We also picked up a butterfly pavilion and some more milkweed plants for later on. Those little guys sure do move alot. They have color now and you can see where they have been eating. Thanks to all for the advice on habitats. I am sure I will have more questions. I will update on the 16 everyday.

[texas butterfly]

Just make sure when they get to PUPA state and emerge as a butterfly that they have sufficient space to climb and dry their wings.

If the space is too small then the wings will not dry properly and thus the butterfly will not be able to fly.

[Mona Miller]

Also, make sure if they fall that they have something to climb back up. This is why I like the net containers.

[mflutterby]

All 16 seem to be doing well. You can see the stripes on them. Only when I use my zoom on my camera. We are considering on putting one of the milkweed potted plants into the butterfly pavilion when the time comes to move them. They can climb up the pavilion since it is that mesh material. How many would we put in one pavilion? We did buy 2 of them. And how soon would we take them out of their little cups to do this? I know, so early, so many questions.

[Mona Miller]

Which pavillion did you buy? How large is it?

[mflutterby]

What we bought is by insect lore. It is a pop-up pavilion #1810. It is 2' tall.

[Mona Miller]

I've put 20 or more in there. It is hard to clean up the bottom due to it being a cylinder.

I recommend the little tent from Monarch Watch Shop, or Educational Science, or Monarch Live. Those can be opened and cleaned more easily. I've posted their websites several times or you can easily find them by googling them.

[skates4marty]

If the butterfly pavilions you bought have zippers in the top, that may become a problem -- in 2 weeks, some of your cats will go up to the roof to pupate, but you'll still have cats eating (and frassing -- can I make a verb out of frass?) on the floor. I have 6 cages from LiveMonarch: 4 small, 2 large. The zippers are on the side, so you can put in fresh milkweed and clean out the frass without disturbing the J's on the roof.

[Mona Miller]

Butterflying is now considered a word, so why not frassing.

[mflutterby]

These pavilions have a zipper on the top and on the side.

[Mona Miller]

If it is the large round cylinders, that side zipper isn't every large. I find the round pavillion cylinders from Insect Lore to be good for eclosing (hatching) pupae. I end up spraying the chrysalis with water, waiting a few seconds and pulling them off what they are attached to. Then I take a stick pin that has a plastic head and pin them into the cylinder by weaving the stick pin in and out of the netting. Always put the sharp end on the outside so that new butterflies don't rip their wings.

http://insectlore.stores.yahoo.net/butpavhabon.html
Insect Lore Pavillion

http://shop.monarchwatch.org/product.aspx?p=113225(base)
Monarch Watch Tent, my Monarchs have mated in this.

http://educationalscience.com/merchant. ... tus=passed
Educational Science Large Cage--large enough to put in a 5 ft tree.
http://educationalscience.com/merchant. ... tus=passed
Educational Science Small Cage--not that small, I can put in a potted tropical milkweed.

http://livemonarch.com/store_enclosures.php
Live Monarch -- Choose a size from very small to very large.

[Flutterby]

16 cats! Very exciting! I did a workshop with Monarch Teacher Network Canada (there is a US network also and they are closely linked) recently and they had us make rearing cages that seem to work very well.

Take a round tomato cage/frame and turn it upside down. The two wires that stick up need to be carefully bent over so they catch on the circular wire below. This will give you a rounded top. Take about metre of dark tulle and carefully wrap it around the wire frame. We were instructed to fold it in three, tie a knot at the top then drape it over the frame. Pull the tulle fairly taught around the frame, starting from the top, and roll it so no cats can escape when they get bigger and go on their 'walkabout'. Secure the tulle with clothes pegs down the side of the cage. Wrap/roll the tulle at the bottom and do a quick and easy stitch to sew it to the bottom circular wire. Put this structure in a chip dip bowl (from the dollar store) and you have rearing cage!

Once the cats are a bit bigger (like 2nd instar) put milkweed stalks in a bottle and place it in the dip spot of the bowl. Put paper towel on the bottom to make frass clean up easy. Transfer the cats to the new stalks and they are happy. They can travel up and down the stalks munching away. When you need to clean the cage or refresh the milkweed or look for the cats, just lift the tall structure off and you have easy access to the milkweed, paper towels and cats.

Also, we were told that the cats can easily attach themselves to the top of the cage to become a chrysalis and the butterflies can hold onto the tulle when they emerge. The butterflies should be moved to a holding cage or released very soon after their wings dry as there is not much room to fly. The chrysalis could also be moved and suspended in a holding cage so they have lots of room to move around right away. We were also taught how to make holding cages so, if you are interested in how we made them, let me know. Both of these cages are very inexpensive and easy to make.

I look forward to your updates. I have three cats that I think are at 3rd instar. I call them my children and my sister-in-law calls me the crazy butterfly lady! LOL!

[mflutterby]

The cats are 3 days old and looking healthy. We have a total of 22 and 2 more should hatch today. So far so good.

[mflutterby]

4 days old and they are doing well, all 22.

[Mona Miller]

I think you did it!!! Hatching, watching them grow, pupation, eclosing (hatching).... All these things make me so nervous. I sit and watch as they shed their skin, I watch over them as they eclose. I watch them flex their wings to get ready to fly. Fall is a wonderful time for Monarchs, but it is also a sad time because we have to eventually say good-bye until Spring.

[mflutterby]

I am constantly do a head count and taking pictures of their daily growth, which is totally amazing. I have been keeping a photo journal from the first day. If all conditions are right what do estimate is the survival rate? I am just curious as to how many of the 22 cats will actually become butterflies?

[Mona Miller]

Since you collected eggs, there is less a chance of parasites. You could get 100% or 90% or 80% or 70% or 60%. Many things can happen along the way. The most important things are to keep the containers dry and free of frass. Clean the containers of frass at least once a day.

[Fishslime]

when collecting eggs on leaves - I use a 16-24oz butter/cottage cheese tub - almost full with wet play sand - make slots for leaves with a butter knife- maybe 12 - 15 leaves per tub - place this in a clear plastic storage bag and use a bread tie - to keep it moist - keep away from sunlight - remove leaf with cat and place leaf on a bigger milkweed plant(or remove cats with paint brush) - I usually have two or three of these containers going - I raise my cats on cuttings placed in wet/damp sand in coffee cans in a screen castle - keeping 1-2-3 instars separate from the 4-5 instars -

[Fishslime]

rather than remove leaves used by a laying Monarch(and the next ones coming thru will probably use the same leaves) - I pick off the eggs using a small paring knife and paint brush - I keep the eggs in a small butter dish and with the paint brush transfer the cats to a milkweed cutting in the screen tent - I get many eggs from potted milkweed plants set away from my garden borders -

[mflutterby]

In doing my cleaning today and head count, I discovered that one of my 22 died. His/her room mate is very healthy, so I am not sure what happened. In collecting some fresh milkweed outside, I found a young caterpillar, so I didn't feel right leaving it outside. Now I am back up to 22. I did put the newbie in a container by itself. Everyone else seems to be doing well.

[mflutterby]

Everyone seems to be growing, eating and growing some more, except one. This one is in with another that is thriving and he seems to be getting smaller and smaller. I fear that he will be dead by tomorrow. He is on the milkweed leaf, but I don't think he is eating.

[Mona Miller]

When a caterpillar is not behaving normally, it is best to isolate it so it will not share what it has with the other caterpillar(s).

[mflutterby]

I went ahead and did that earlier. Now we just hope for the best.

[mflutterby]

The little cat did die. Some of them are now at the 4th instar stage. When should I start to transfer them to the butterfly pavilion? At what stage? The other question is, we want to put the milkweed plant, pot and all, inside the pavilion. How do water it at this point. If you use a saucer to catch the water the cats could drown. If your pot has drainage holes in it the water will run out into the pavilion. Of course this is being done inside the house.

[Mona Miller]

The only thing that I can think that I've done in that case is to put a pastic bag around the bottom of the plant.

I find the pavillions great for eclosing (hatching), but not for rearing. They are too hard to clean, while raising the Monarchs.

[mflutterby]

So the containers that I have them in now are the 1lb deli containers. I have 2 cats per container. I clean twice a day and also replace the leaves twice a day or more if needed. They are molting and so far everything seems to be good. You recommend that I keep them in these containers? Do I need to put something at the top so they can attach to it to pupate or can they attach to the plastic lid? I feel like we will be getting close with some of them.

[Mona Miller]

Is there holes in the lid? You can take a large coffee filter and put that on top of the lid and then put the lid on. They will attach to the coffee filter and then you can pin them into the net cylinder.

[mflutterby]

I do have holes in the lid. I have large coffee filters too. So at would stage do I put the coffee filters on? Sorry for so many questions.

[Mona Miller]

The last instar or when you see the 5th instar caterpillar off the food and going for their walk about. They travel around and around looking for the perfect place to place their pupae.

This has info on determining instars:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1897&p=8922&hilit=instars#p8920

[mflutterby]

Ok. Another question...what is the silky web like stuff that they seem to leaving behind? One of the smaller ones had left it on one of the old leaves that I was pulling out and he came along with it. Luckily I was aware of it so no disaster.

[Mona Miller]

Unfortunately, you probably detached the caterpillar from a pad of silk they put down to shed their skin. They also leave a line of silk wherever they travel.

http://www.mymonarchguide.com/2007/05/t ... trade.html
This website has example of using toliet paper or coffee filters for caterpillars to pupate. Scroll down about half way.

[mflutterby]

This morning all 22 looked good. We cleaned and changed leaves. We left for a few hours and checked on them when we got back. Four of them (in 2 separate containers) look dead. There is a green liquid in and on the container. We took two of them out and put them in a fresh container. They are moving but not really well. The other two are dead. What is the green liquid and what might have caused this.

[mflutterby]

We are figuring the milkweed we bought had been sprayed. We had been using ours in the yard, up until this morning. So we cleaned everything out and are watching everyone carefully. As it stands it looks like we lost 2 definitely and I would say 2 more may not make it. We are back to using what is left on our plants and hope that we won't run out.

[Mona Miller]

You need to let the nursery person know that you grow butterflies and your caterpillars died. I let my nursery know and they found milkweed that hadn't been sprayed. Some nurseries are using systemic pesticides and those go into the plants and stay for up to 6-8 weeks or longer. They don't want their plants being attacked by aphids.

Trying finding a source in a natural area. Once you know what common milkweed looks like, you may be surprised at how many places it grow. Next year, buy some tropical milkweed seeds. They grow fast in the summer heat and are still green in the fall.

[summerluver]

Last year I had so much success with raising my butterfies that at one point I had babies on plants in my enclosure, last instar seekers climbing all over finding their perfect J spot, and butterflies emerging all at the same time. It was very crowded and utter insanity with the wanderers bothering everyone, no matter what they were trying to do! I had to do something immediately and came up with a couple solutions that worked out rather well. I went to the local dollar store and found a round, mesh toy keeper that was hung. It had three compartments and a hole in the front of each compartment in which to put the toys through. I also bought 3 mesh, pop-up clothes hampers that could also be hung for $1.00. I cut up and used the mesh from one of them to make doors to these openings by sewing some mesh over the top of each doorway, and using pins to secure the sides (I was in a hurry!) I put paper towels on the bottom of each, and put about 3-4 of my little wanderers in each compartment. They found their way up to the top and found it suitable for their J's. I used the other pop-up hamper to make a butterfly holder, using the scraps from the other hamper to make a long door out of velcro. This works well when my butterflies have emerged but could use a little more room to dry, outside of my enclosure. When we tag them we put them back into it, and carry them all outside for their release. Both containers are really easy to wash, fold up and store in big ziploc bags for the next season.

[mflutterby]

This morning everyone seems to be doing well after yesterdays disaster. We have 18 healthy cats. It seems that the tainted milkweed killed the younger cats. One of the larger cats seemed to have eaten the tainted milkweed. He convulsed and threw up the green stuff. We separated him from the others and gave him the good milkweed and he recovered. We did contact the nursery, they told us that they don't spray them, however the milkweed comes to them from an outside source, who must have sprayed it. I think we will have enough to get through this cycle. We are at day 11. The majority of the cats seem to be at the same size. There are a few that may be a day or two behind. We have seeds to plant for next year so we don't have to go looking for milkweed. A hard lessen to learn.